Cyprus-Forum.com

[ZoC]

thank god. 1960 conditions were racist and rubbish for us good cypriots. they certainly wouldn't work in a 21st century eu context.

But they did save us all from having no cypriot nation at all and all of us being Greek citizens and Cyprus being no more than a backwater of a bankrupt Greek state, with cypriots having little or no effective say over their own lives as cypriots. So not all bad then

20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

of course, had greece been lucky enough to become amalgamated into the cypriot economic powerhouse back then she probably wouldn't be in this mess she's in now.

[Bananiot]

Pyrpolyser, the answer is so simple, I can really not understand you. A small, minnow country like ours, cannot behave arrogantly, looking for trouble, really. The Turks could never come to Cyprus had we not literally invited them to come. So, all we need is a pragmatic approach that reflects our size and importance and which transduces any shortcomings in might with the power of the brain.

I am referring to pragmatic, realistic policies while we make sure that we carry with us influential friends with whom we have common interests and goals. Instead, so far since independence, we behaved as though we are a superpower, showing little respect for anybody whom we thought stood against our aspirations and then when calamity struck, instead of learning and becoming wiser, we still think like we did back then.

Do we have a future? Have we shed those characteristics that brought us to this dire situation? I doubt it.

[Get Real!]

A small, minnow country like ours, cannot behave arrogantly, looking for trouble, really.

You were bullied pretty bad at school weren’t you?

[ZoC]

advice on how to deal with turkey from:

http://kidshealth.org/kid/feeling/emotion/bullies.html#

stand tall and be brave. if ur scared of another country, ur probably not feeling your bravest. but sometimes just acting brave is enough to stop an aggressive country. how does a brave country look and act? stand tall and u'll send the message: "don't mess with me". it's easier to feel brave when u feel good about urself. see the next tip!

feel good about u. nobody's perfect, but what can u do to look and feel your best? maybe you'd like to be more fit. if so, maybe you'll decide to do more military exercises, buy new tanks, and eat healthier snacks. or maybe you feel u look best when ur drilling for natural gas off ur coast.

get a buddy (and be a buddy). two (or more) countries are better than one if ur trying to avoid being bullied. make a plan to join a bunch of friendly, powerful nations (eg. the eu) who can look out for u wherever u think u might be be attacked. offer to do the same if a friendly country is having bully trouble.

[humanist]

I don't think there are many people who are against BBF, however this BBF cannot discriminate and needs to be democratic for all. Eroglu thus far has maintained a pro Turkish stance and one that promotes inequalities. You cannot have a European State that is different to all others when it comes to treating it's people in a democratic fair and just ways.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyrpolyser, the answer is so simple, I can really not understand you. A small, minnow country like ours, cannot behave arrogantly, looking for trouble, really. The Turks could never come to Cyprus had we not literally invited them to come. So, all we need is a pragmatic approach that reflects our size and importance and which transduces any shortcomings in might with the power of the brain.

I am referring to pragmatic, realistic policies while we make sure that we carry with us influential friends with whom we have common interests and goals. Instead, so far since independence, we behaved as though we are a superpower, showing little respect for anybody whom we thought stood against our aspirations and then when calamity struck, instead of learning and becoming wiser, we still think like we did back then.

Do we have a future? Have we shed those characteristics that brought us to this dire situation? I doubt it.

Bananiot with all due respect but you haven't seen arrogance and stupidity and thinking they are the "center of the world" in other countries regardless of their size. Should we start giving examples?

And I don't think we behave as if we are some sort of superpower. There are limits as to the degree a small nation should behave like a good boy. And don't forget that World war I, started because of a tiny piece of land, for much less significant reasons than oil.

No matter how sensible we could be there will always be one thing we will not be able to change or avoid:The Turkish PARANOIA.

[Pyrpolizer]

I don't think there are many people who are against BBF, however this BBF cannot discriminate and needs to be democratic for all. Eroglu thus far has maintained a pro Turkish stance and one that promotes inequalities. You cannot have a European State that is different to all others when it comes to treating it's people in a democratic fair and just ways.

My friend the truth is that this BBF no matter how you look at it, contains the element of deprivation of human and other democratic rights. BBF means
a)Bi-zonal
b)Bi-Communal
In order to maintain both the Bi- zonal and the Bi-communal character you need restrictions on human rights. These restrictions could range from insignificant degree with limited time validity, to a huge degree with permanent validity.

In other words ANY BBF will not be fully democratic and fully in accordance with the EU aquis. The Kypreos should of start digesting this FACT.

It is obvious however that the Kypreos will never accept any type of BBF that will deprive him permanently his human rights for free movement, free settlement and enterpirse. And will certainly not accept any limitation on his property rights. This however includes the risk of eroding the BBF system over time.

The Kibrislis and Turkey with the Eroglus & Denktashes not only want the exact opposite type of BBF, not only refuse to take absolutely no risk that the BBF will most propably not eroded because it is unlikely for the population to be redistrubuted they want quarantees as well.(remember VP's demands for guarantees).Not to mention the fact that they dont like even the BBF and move one step further in asking for confederation!!

The fact that Cyprus is an EU Country and the whatever agreement on BBF (although it will contain some violations of human rights and some undemocratic elements initially) cannot be very far from the Aquis and never be permanent does not seem to convince them.

In my opinion the biggest mistake in the negotiations is the fact that they NEVER discussed and hence NEVER AGREED these issues in advance.
Hence we are having endless negotiations leading nowhere...

[ZoC]

and the reason for that is because of something called "constructive obfuscation" - a term coined by our old mate kissinger...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_ambiguity

the deliberate use of ambiguous language on a sensitive issue in order to advance some political purpose. Constructive ambiguity is often disparaged as fudging. It might be employed in a negotiation, both to disguise an inability to resolve a contentious issue on which the parties remain far apart, and to do so in a manner that enables each to claim obtaining some concession on it. It warrants further hopes that the ensuing postponement of resolution on this particular point, in a way that causes neither side excessive discomfort, will enable them to make real progress on other matters. If this progress takes place, the unresolved question might be revisited at a later date, if not voided altogether by the passage of time. On the other hand, since ambiguity in agreements can generate subsequent controversy, the likelihood of its employment proving constructive in comparison to further attempts to negotiate the point in question in clear terms, is a question best left for historians.

in relation to cyprus, i've highlighted the terms which are constructively ambiguous....

"bi-zonal, bi-communal federation with political equality, as defined by relevant security council resolutions. this partnership will have a federal government with a single international personality, as well as a turkish cypriot constituent state and a greek cypriot constituent state, which will be of equal status."

[denizaksulu]

First I would like to congratulate our friend Pyro in the way he has been debating the problems faced. Pyro has shown skill and gentlemanly behaviour towards all he has debated with. I wish all were of such good quality (debates). Needless to say that this also has been shown by his TC or in his words Kıbrıslı opponent (was it Erolz)?

Pyro, it seem from your post above, that you have objections to BBF; under the present situation on the ground how do you think the problem might be solved. I also have in mind what Bananiot is saying too. Can we or anyone seriously change what is happening on our beloved island. I tend to think of Bananiot being a pragmatist; no sensible person likes what is happening ESP with the settlers and the above mentioned 'Turkification' of our island

Regards

Denizaksulu

[Pyrpolizer]

First I would like to congratulate our friend Pyro in the way he has been debating the problems faced. Pyro has shown skill and gentlemanly behaviour towards all he has debated with. I wish all were of such good quality (debates). Needless to say that this also has been shown by his TC or in his words Kıbrıslı opponent (was it Erolz)?

Pyro, it seem from your post above, that you have objections to BBF; under the present situation on the ground how do you think the problem might be solved. I also have in mind what Bananiot is saying too. Can we or anyone seriously change what is happening on our beloved island. I tend to think of Bananiot being a pragmatist; no sensible person likes what is happening ESP with the settlers and the above mentioned 'Turkification' of our island

Regards

Denizaksulu

Oh you now made be blush my friend Deniz from Aksu.

Erolz3 is just a Kibrisli friend who's wavelength seems to match with mine. I believe he is more of a researcher of truth than an opponent in debates. I like him. I think he deserves more respect from some people in here.

Anyhow, I never hidden the fact that my number one preference for a solution is the return to the 1960 constitution AS WE ARE NOW and work things from there.This is an immediate solution, and removes all the negatives from the lives of the Kibrislis caused by their living isolated in an unrecognized state. It gives them direct flights, direct trade, and defacto civilian and mostly administrative control of the existing occupied area.
I understand that I am a tiny minority in this view, like some Kibrislis who hold the same view are. (e.g Sener Levent et al). You see for most Kibrislis that would equal return to pre- 1974 and an ANATHEMA. I believe they are wrong but then again i am just a little minority in this view.

So my next option is the BBF, which I support without having any fantacies of what it really is. However like I said above the BBF ranges from very mildly undemocratic without permanent derrogations to very very undemocratic with lots of permanent derrogations. I don't support just ANY eventual form of BBF i only support the first type.

There is also a problem with this BBF, because the leaders have never clarified from the very begining the extend to which there will be violations of human rights and derrogations from Aquis, and having not done that the negotiations are and will be never ending.

ANY SOLUTION be it BBF or my proposal to return back to the 1960 agreements will put an end to the Turkification of our island. From there on we could give incentives to the settlers to leave as well as incentives for the Kibrislis to come back to their homecountry,

So to summarize my proposals are:
Either Immediate return to 1960 contstitution and take it from there TOGETHER (Kypreos and KIbrislis) for a final solution
or
Clarify the BBF extend of derrogations on human rights and their time limit before any further discussions. If this is FINALIZED and AGREED we will have a solution 1 year after (at the maximum).