Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

For example you got married. What do you want the RoC to do for you?

Not sure. Is there different taxes for married couples in RoC than unmarried , like in UK ?
Is there no RoC 'process' that requires the presentation of a birth certificate, like if I were to apply for a RoC ID card as a citizen by birth or parentage ?

Use some imagination.

The reason I asked you for a specific example was to reduce the length of my reply. Nevertheless:

A birth certificate/an ID card/ A passport is the same thing in RoC. They all have the same number and each one automatically issues the rest. If your father and mother are Cypriots with an RoC ID, then they will issue you their own birth certificate (and the rest if you want) only after your father and mother register you under oath at the district court. The "trnc" papers are ignored. If your mother is not a Cypriot but from Turkey then you don't get anything.

Sener Levent's wife is from Turkey. He complained publicly that RoC does not recognize his children as Cypriots....

There are many ifs for each case but the bottom line is no "trnc" certificate is acceptable.

[erolz3]

There are many ifs for each case but the bottom line is no "trnc" certificate is acceptable.

Respectfully suggest you really need to just skip to my post above that starts "OOh this one (link) is a dozy" top of page 9. It makes much of these other side discussion redunatant I think in a very clear way.

[Sotos]

I had a look quickly and it seems that a few things can be allowed for humanitarian reasons but this doesn't legitimize any action of the "trnc".

And when I suggested that certain documents issued by trnc or process done by TRNC and the like could have legal validity under international law, I always stress that it would NOT mean any change in the status of the TRNC. I would suggest that that 'private rights' are not just a 'few things' if by that it means the rights of indivduals as defined in various HR documents including those of the ECHR but is actual quite substantive.

So anyway it would seem that 'small breakthroughs' are still possible, like above and in regards to agreement on 6 month RoC requirment, provided we leave ourselves enough 'space' to find them. Thats quite positive. And also credit where credit is due, you did not dismiss the evidence I discovered out of hand, just because it didnt match your previous understanding of the truth.

Another breakthrough will be when you accept that "trnc" is something that should be used in quotes because it refers to some separate "Republic" in Cyprus which doesn't really exist. The UN, EU and the whole world recognize only one state in Cyprus, the TCs who live in the north part of Cyprus are Cypriot and EU citizens, there is a UN resolution that says that the attempt to create a "trnc" is invalid etc etc. This is something much more obvious than what we were discussing earlier but you do not accept it.

[Pyrpolizer]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

Are you saying that banks in the RoC don't accept Turkish Lira ? Funny that, 'cos tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Turkish Lira pass through RoC banks every day.

Turkish liras are issued by Turkey which is a real state and not by the pseudo state.

Exactly. TRNC doesn't issue its own currency ? (Neither does RoC now, along with 16 other European states) So what ? What's your point ?

My point is that nothing issued by some "trnc" would be accepted by RoC as an official document. A paper from a "trnc" counts as much as a paper that I print myself. It doesn't have the value of an official state document.

Putting the paper money aside (because it is just too complicated to work through at this time of night) there are numerous examples of "state papers" or public papers that are "issued" in TRNC which are accepted in RoC. If someone goes with a medical report from a public hospital in the north to a public or private hospital in the RoC then they're not chucked in the bin as "unrecognised". When someone drives a car from north to south with a TRNC numberplate and vehicle ownership certificate the RoC border agency and traffic police accept those as legitimate documents of ownership/identification. When stuff goes south under EU Green Line Regulations, despite lots of continuing problems, it is clear that the RoC is dealing with legal documents issued in the TRNC.

In 2004 there was very little of this acceptance of TRNC 'state documents', today there's quite a lot. The sky has not fallen in, the earth has not stopped spinning on its axis, and the four horsemen of the apocalypse have not galloped out on business. Let this continue, let there be dialogue, let there be exchanges, let there be restitution, let there be remembrance, let there be peace.

Not exactly copperline. Suppose someone is diagnosed with cancer in the head from a hospital in the occupied, AND BASED ON THAT ALONE he undergoes an operation in the head at the RoC hospital, found to have no cancer but the man stays paralysed and sues the republic, do you think there is any defense for the Republic saying "but according to the hospital in the occupied he was supposed to have cancer"?

In reality any "legal trnc" document that might have implications in RoC is ignored, and RoC starts from scratch issuing her own legal documents.
In the case of the patient above they will make their own examinations on whether indeed he has cancer in the head or not.

Similarly for the cars. The RoC doesn't really care whose the car is. Therefore the ownership documents are ignored. What it cares for is whether the driver and the passengers are Cypriots with an RoC ID, and secondly to be legally covered if the car gets involved in an accident. Hence they require the issuing of a comprehensive third party car insurance.

And you know the exports of products through the green line regulation are not really escorted with "trnc" documents but with EU sanitary certificates...

It's a different thing to accept a piece of paper as A LEGAL DOCUMENT. I am sure you know what a legal document is....

[Pyrpolizer]

They could use all the adverbs and it would still be right. legally, politically, culturally etc, the attempt to create a "trnc" is invalid because those who declared this "state" are not the people of the territory but foreign invaders who have no right to declare that our land is anything we don't want it to be.

You seem to have forgotten what we are discussing. The question is can documents produced by the TRNC be considered legaly valid despite it status, in any circumstance and if so what circumstances.

THe answer may well be in the '‘Namibia exception" and the circumstance may well be "this invalidity cannot be extended to those acts, such as, for instance, the registration of births, deaths and marriages, the effects of which can be ignored only to the detriment of the inhabitants of the Territory "

Here we go again....

LEGALLY??

The definite answer is NOOOOOOOOOOO

[Pyrpolizer]

There are many ifs for each case but the bottom line is no "trnc" certificate is acceptable.

Respectfully suggest you really need to just skip to my post above that starts "OOh this one (link) is a dozy" top of page 9. It makes much of these other side discussion redunatant I think in a very clear way.

And respectfully may I add this extract from the above document after the word "certificate" for clarification purposes?

having legal consequences

[erolz3]

Another breakthrough will be when you accept that "trnc" is something that should be used in quotes because it refers to some separate "Republic" in Cyprus which doesn't really exist. The UN, EU and the whole world recognize only one state in Cyprus, the TCs who live in the north part of Cyprus are Cypriot and EU citizens, there is a UN resolution that says that the attempt to create a "trnc" is invalid etc etc. This is something much more obvious than what we were discussing earlier but you do not accept it.

If it really will make that much of a difference to you sotos then I will indeed try to remeber to do so, but just look at the spelling mistakes that are legion in all my posts, which are a function of the speed at which I type these messages and slight dyslexia.

I will happily state that my failure to do so is just one of laziness and in no way is intended to imply or confer any status to the TRNC that it does not have. I KNOW it is not internationaly recognised (other than by Turkey which doesn mean much). I accept all you say above as true. * Would that not suffice rather than actualy force me to add another two characters of typing to a 4 letter word I use many many times in posts ? If you say no it really does matter to me then I will do my best to do that for you. OK ?

* small disclaimer - if we get a situation were I think what it means in international law as a result of the "TRNC" status is different to yours or others, I will say that and not expect to be told, but you said you accepted that blah blah blah and now you are saying something different.

Anyway how was the use of "'s for you in the above ?

[erolz3]

And respectfully may I add this extract from the above document after the word "certificate" for clarification purposes?

having legal consequences

I am sorry Pyrpolizer I do not know what you mean ? Searching the page for certificate I get 9 hits and I am not sure what the signifcaance of what you are sayin above is ?

Have you read the 'namibia exception' post above and the link to ruling re turkish cyriot airlines vs Uk secretary of state yet ?

Sorry its been a long night for me so far.

[Sotos]

Another breakthrough will be when you accept that "trnc" is something that should be used in quotes because it refers to some separate "Republic" in Cyprus which doesn't really exist. The UN, EU and the whole world recognize only one state in Cyprus, the TCs who live in the north part of Cyprus are Cypriot and EU citizens, there is a UN resolution that says that the attempt to create a "trnc" is invalid etc etc. This is something much more obvious than what we were discussing earlier but you do not accept it.

If it really will make that much of a difference to you sotos then I will indeed try to remeber to do so, but just look at the spelling mistakes that are legion in all my posts, which are a function of the speed at which I type these messages and slight dyslexia.

I will happily state that my failure to do so is just one of laziness and in no way is intended to imply or confer any status to the TRNC that it does not have. I KNOW it is not internationaly recognised (other than by Turkey which doesn mean much). I accept all you say above as true. * Would that not suffice rather than actualy force me to add another two characters of typing to a 4 letter word I use many many times in posts ? If you say no it really does matter to me then I will do my best to do that for you. OK ?

* small disclaimer - if we get a situation were I think what it means in international law as a result of the "TRNC" status is different to yours or others, I will say that and not expect to be told, but you said you accepted that blah blah blah and now you are saying something different.

Anyway how was the use of "'s for you in the above ?

Two characters will not add much more weight but are important. How would you feel if I was calling you a Turk instead of Turkish Cypriot, saying that typing Turk is less characters? I sometimes call Turkish Cypriots as Turks and imply they are foreigners in Cyprus just to piss them off as a retaliation when they piss me off. When you use the term "trnc" without quotes that implies that there is some other state in the north part of Cyprus which is not mine and this is an offense that I can not easily overlook!

[Sotos]

Sorry its been a long night for me so far.

What do you mean "a long night"? It is noon! Aren't you in Cyprus?