Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

Are you saying that banks in the RoC don't accept Turkish Lira ? Funny that, 'cos tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Turkish Lira pass through RoC banks every day.

Turkish liras are issued by Turkey which is a real state and not by the pseudo state.

Exactly. TRNC doesn't issue its own currency ? (Neither does RoC now, along with 16 other European states) So what ? What's your point ?

My point is that nothing issued by some "trnc" would be accepted by RoC as an official document. A paper from a "trnc" counts as much as a paper that I print myself. It doesn't have the value of an official state document.

[CopperLine]

There is no such thing as "trnc", that is why when this term is used it is used in quotes. The UN resolution 541 is very clear when it says that the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid. Please note how the UN resolution uses the quotes to describe what they Turks attempted to create but which was never really created since this attempt was legally invalid. So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Very perilous to under-estimate the power and universality of UN Res 541, which tells member states to do nothing to recognise tnucland, which puts the regime in a diff ball-park from the other examples raised.

Do you know any other attempts to create states that were declared legally invalid by the UN? CopperLine doesn't know. I mean "unrecognized state" is none thing. "Legally invalid attempt to create a state" is a whole another thing!

Res 541 is soooooooo important mate.

Bill Cobbett, we also know that the UN Security Council is not a judicial body it is a political body. The UN SC does not make international law it makes political claims and declarations including Resolutions. That is why, for example, in 541 and elsewhere it says "calls upon", "requests that" "considers that" and so on.

The UNSC is consistently clear that it doesn't want states to recognise the TRNC; of that there is no doubt. But that does not make recognition of TRNC by a state illegal. In fact 541 gives the reason why the UNSC does not want states to recognise the TRNC because it "will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus". THE UNSC does not say that recognising TRNC is illegal because that is something that the UNSC is not authorised to determine since it is a not a judicial body. (People often confuse the point about invalidity of the TRNC with illegality of recognition, thinking that they're the same thing; they're not. The "invalidity" refers to the effort to create the TRNC, not to recognition (again about which the UNSC is able only to go as far as "call[ing] upon States not to recognise ...."). This is what is important about the Kosovo case before the ICJ : it was not about recognition of Kosovo but about the right and procedure by which Kosovo declared its independence. In short, a judicial body, the ICJ found that Kosovan independence had been declared in valid manner whereas the UNSC, a political body, insists that TRNC was declared in an invalid manner; but in neither case does either body prohibit recognition nor specify what form recognition must take.

[Pyrpolizer]

If those TCs have a right for a transaction then RoC will ask them to follow the legal procedures to legally do the transaction. What are those TCs going to complain to the ECHR about? That they want a transaction made by some "trnc" to be recognized by RoC because following the legal procedures is a violation of their human rights?

I present my TRNC issued marriage certificate to the RoC as proof of my marriage (or birth certifcate as proof of birth). The RoC refuse to accept my marriage certificate and says it will only recognise my marriage if I marry again within the RoC, or my birth certifcate if I am born again in the RoC. I go to the ECHR and ask can the RoC refuse to accept the validlty of my TRNC marriage certificate or birth certificate.

The RoC does not recognise any papers from "trnc" erolz3. Nor is she oblidged to even look at them unless there is something you want RoC to do for you.

For example you got married. What do you want the RoC to do for you?

[erolz3]

Do you know any other attempts to create states that were declared legally invalid by the UN? CopperLine doesn't know. I mean "unrecognized state" is none thing. "Legally invalid attempt to create a state" is a whole another thing!

541 states the decleration to be legaly invalid. Not sure that means quite what you think it means. Nor do I know of any reason to think that the wording of this decleration makes a material difference to how legaly valid documents issued by it may be in relation to other unrecognised states, other than assertions by some here that it does. Some actual referance showing that recognition of a unrecognised state legal validity in international law varies depending on the wording of UN documents would help to convince.

[Sotos]

The UN SC does not make international law it makes political claims and declarations including Resolutions. That is why, for example, in 541 and elsewhere it says "calls upon", "requests that" "considers that" and so on.

It also says that the attempt to create a "trnc" is legally invalid. It doesn't say "politically invalid". It says legally invalid.

[erolz3]

For example you got married. What do you want the RoC to do for you?

Not sure. Is there different taxes for married couples in RoC than unmarried , like in UK ?
Is there no RoC 'process' that requires the presentation of a birth certificate, like if I were to apply for a RoC ID card as a citizen by birth or parentage ?

Use some imagination.

[CopperLine]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

Are you saying that banks in the RoC don't accept Turkish Lira ? Funny that, 'cos tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Turkish Lira pass through RoC banks every day.

Turkish liras are issued by Turkey which is a real state and not by the pseudo state.

Exactly. TRNC doesn't issue its own currency ? (Neither does RoC now, along with 16 other European states) So what ? What's your point ?

My point is that nothing issued by some "trnc" would be accepted by RoC as an official document. A paper from a "trnc" counts as much as a paper that I print myself. It doesn't have the value of an official state document.

Putting the paper money aside (because it is just too complicated to work through at this time of night) there are numerous examples of "state papers" or public papers that are "issued" in TRNC which are accepted in RoC. If someone goes with a medical report from a public hospital in the north to a public or private hospital in the RoC then they're not chucked in the bin as "unrecognised". When someone drives a car from north to south with a TRNC numberplate and vehicle ownership certificate the RoC border agency and traffic police accept those as legitimate documents of ownership/identification. When stuff goes south under EU Green Line Regulations, despite lots of continuing problems, it is clear that the RoC is dealing with legal documents issued in the TRNC.

In 2004 there was very little of this acceptance of TRNC 'state documents', today there's quite a lot. The sky has not fallen in, the earth has not stopped spinning on its axis, and the four horsemen of the apocalypse have not galloped out on business. Let this continue, let there be dialogue, let there be exchanges, let there be restitution, let there be remembrance, let there be peace.

[Sotos]

Do you know any other attempts to create states that were declared legally invalid by the UN? CopperLine doesn't know. I mean "unrecognized state" is none thing. "Legally invalid attempt to create a state" is a whole another thing!

541 states the decleration to be legaly invalid. Not sure that means quite what you think it means. Nor do I know of any reason to think that the wording of this decleration makes a material difference to how legaly valid documents issued by it may be in relation to other unrecognised states, other than assertions by some here that it does. Some actual referance showing that recognition of a unrecognised state legal validity in international law varies depending on the wording of UN documents would help to convince.

The whole world is convinced since no country recognizes the "trnc". To me it is also clear. If you can not be convinced, don't. But then don't complain that you can not convince us in some other less obvious things when you don't allow yourself to be convinced for something which is so obvious.

[erolz3]

It also says that the attempt to create a "trnc" is legally invalid. It doesn't say "politically invalid". It says legally invalid.

I still dont see how that means without any possible doubt that because the state itself is legaly invalid, that any documents it produces are also so. I can see how you might want to believe it.

There is no doubt that others states that are legaly invalid as states in the eyes of the international community do produce documents that are not considered such in certain circumstances.

As too if there are similar with similar or same wording as 541, that will take time to research.

[Sotos]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

Are you saying that banks in the RoC don't accept Turkish Lira ? Funny that, 'cos tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Turkish Lira pass through RoC banks every day.

Turkish liras are issued by Turkey which is a real state and not by the pseudo state.

Exactly. TRNC doesn't issue its own currency ? (Neither does RoC now, along with 16 other European states) So what ? What's your point ?

My point is that nothing issued by some "trnc" would be accepted by RoC as an official document. A paper from a "trnc" counts as much as a paper that I print myself. It doesn't have the value of an official state document.

Putting the paper money aside (because it is just too complicated to work through at this time of night) there are numerous examples of "state papers" or public papers that are "issued" in TRNC which are accepted in RoC. If someone goes with a medical report from a public hospital in the north to a public or private hospital in the RoC then they're not chucked in the bin as "unrecognised". When someone drives a car from north to south with a TRNC numberplate and vehicle ownership certificate the RoC border agency and traffic police accept those as legitimate documents of ownership/identification. When stuff goes south under EU Green Line Regulations, despite lots of continuing problems, it is clear that the RoC is dealing with legal documents issued in the TRNC.

In 2004 there was very little of this acceptance of TRNC 'state documents', today there's quite a lot. The sky has not fallen in, the earth has not stopped spinning on its axis, and the four horsemen of the apocalypse have not galloped out on business. Let this continue, let there be dialogue, let there be exchanges, let there be restitution, let there be remembrance, let there be peace.

You are wrong. The RoC doesn't accept those documents as official state documents. It just allows certain things as a gesture of goodwill. But it seems that you want to exploit these gestures of goodwill to legitimize the pseudo state. I don't think you are helping dialog and peace in this way. You only make it harder for RoC to allow more such things and maybe you will even force RoC to end certain things if you continue trying to exploit this goodwill.