Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

[CopperLine]

he reference is a very interesting one not least because it shows that recognition varies from state to state and that there is no international standard or legal criteria for recognition (or non-recognition).

How many other attempts to create states on land occupied with a foreign invasion were deemed legally invalid with a UN resolution. Do you know?

Errr ...... 42
I mean ...... 6
I meant to say ... 0
No, hold on, .... 7,365
Wait a minute ... that's a trick question isn't ?

Do you know Sotos ? 'Cos I can't even figure out what your question means.

[CopperLine]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

[Sotos]

he reference is a very interesting one not least because it shows that recognition varies from state to state and that there is no international standard or legal criteria for recognition (or non-recognition).

How many other attempts to create states on land occupied with a foreign invasion were deemed legally invalid with a UN resolution. Do you know?

Errr ...... 42
I mean ...... 6
I meant to say ... 0
No, hold on, .... 7,365
Wait a minute ... that's a trick question isn't ?

Do you know Sotos ? 'Cos I can't even figure out what your question means.

The question is very clear. The "trnc" is not just an "unrecognized state". The attempt to create a "trnc" was deemed legally invalid with a UN resolution because it is on territory of Republic of Cyprus taken from us with a foreign invasion. So how many other such pseudo states exist which are created by foreign invasion, ethnic cleansing of the majority of the population and now inhabited mostly by foreign settlers?

[erolz3]

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

The question is not if the national courts of the RoC would accept them as legal, but if having not been accepted as legal by RoC courts and then challenged in the ECHR would it find them legal or not.

That is are they cosidered legal under INTERNATIONAL law, not national law of the RoC.

[Sotos]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

[Pyrpolizer]

Well, you ‘d rather talk for things you are sure Erolz3 if you want to get some meaningful discussion and or conclussion out of it.
Using terms like "may be" , "could be", "it’s possible", "it’s not certain", "I could be wrong" etc., serves no other purpose other than filling up space with scattered thoughts

The way I learn is to posit possibilites and have those examined, preferably by more than just myself and in cases like this even more so by those who have 'opposing views' to myself. I am sorry if you find this approach useless. It works for me, within the limits of the sincerity of those I am discussing with and my own limitations.

However any administrative actions of the "trnc" on the matter of properties is not accepted by anyone as legally valid unless the legal state which is RoC confirms it.
In this respect bying-selling pre-1974 TC owned properties between individuals will surely never cause a problem, and eventually considered an acceptable administrative action of the "trnc", but transfering ownership to the "trnc" is NOT.

Believe me I HAVE thought about it, quite alot. I am not an expert and am limited by my own abilites but I do sincerely do my best.

I think that there is evidence that the ECHR does consider the voluantary transfer of legaly owned proprties of TC in the south to the TRNC as legaly valid, in that I understand such transfered properties have been offered as compensation by the IPC. Maybe it means they are leagly valid transactions in 'Turkey', with the TRNC as just an admistrative body of Turkey or some other legal 'means' that makes them valid. It seems to me , if such properties had been offered as compensation by the IPC, and the transfer that changed their ownership from the individual to the TRNC (or maybe Turkey ) was itself illegal, they (ECHR) could not possibly deem the IPC to be valid local remedy.

Again this is I am afraid positing possibilites. I do NOT know that this is the case, I am just pointing out why I think it might be.

PS the bits of your post I do not quote, I agree with you so have just left them out.

They haven't!
What they offered was EVKAF property.
There is a reason for that, which contradicts your assumption that an individual can transfer ownership rights to "trnc".
Besides the RoC refused to transfer ownership and the matter halted.

[erolz3]

The question is very clear. The "trnc" is not just an "unrecognized state". The attempt to create a "trnc" was deemed legally invalid with a UN resolution because it is on territory of Republic of Cyprus taken from us with a foreign invasion. So how many other such pseudo states exist which are created by foreign invasion, ethnic cleansing of the majority of the population and now inhabited mostly by foreign settlers?

Care to site the UN resolution number where this was done? You may be right but from memory it called on member states to not recognise the TRNC, which is a bit different from your view above. Still I am sure you can quickly provide the necessary evidence on this one and put this to bed quickly.

[CopperLine]

So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Do you really believe 'it can not' based on an honest review of what has been posted, or simply because it is what you want to believe ?

Because that is how it is. Try presenting any kind of paper issued by the "trnc" in a Republic of Cyprus court and lets see if it will be admissible.

Try presenting a any kind of paper [sic] issued by Russia in a Republic of France court and let's see if it will be admissible [sic]. Answer : No. Why Sotos ?

Are you saying in France they will not accept Rubles in their banks?

Are you saying that banks in the RoC don't accept Turkish Lira ? Funny that, 'cos tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Turkish Lira pass through RoC banks every day.

[bill cobbett]

There is no such thing as "trnc", that is why when this term is used it is used in quotes. The UN resolution 541 is very clear when it says that the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid. Please note how the UN resolution uses the quotes to describe what they Turks attempted to create but which was never really created since this attempt was legally invalid. So how can something which is legally invalid itself issue anything which is legally valid? It can not.

Very perilous to under-estimate the power and universality of UN Res 541, which tells member states to do nothing to recognise tnucland, which puts the regime in a diff ball-park from the other examples raised.