Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Fair enough. But it seems you expect us to change while I didn't see any change from you. Every time you tell us the same things. If you can not change then why should you expect that we will? I suggest the next time you come here to be changed yourself. otherwise don't bother

It is not really a case of I expect you to change without me changing. THe hope is more that we can have the 'space' were that is possible and whilst over the first year or so of participation in a place like this I did actualy change my perspectives on some things, having learnt some things and accepted them , past that point there is no further progress for me or others seemingly. The 'space' gets closed down.

Just take for example this simple issue , of is any and every document produced in the TRNC automatically legaly invalid internationaly simply because the TRNC is unrecognised. We could , togeather, potential make real progress on our combined understanding of the truth about this. However in reality we never do, because if I suggest it might be true, the automatic assumption by even the sincere, is that I am somehow trying to gain an 'advantage' for my side regadless of the actual truth. This leads to responses that seek to 'destroy' what I suggest might be the case, not motivated by a desire to know the truth by by a desire to counter what I say. Then there are also those that do not want to know the truth regardless because it might be true and they would rather people beleived an untruth that benefited 'thier side' than discover that it does not in this case.

So what starts as a simple 'inquiry' gets immediate met with 'so what about if documents etc, it doesnt matter because you stole from us, your are thieves, you are this that and the other', which lead to responses of 'we didnt , we aren't , you did to and so and so on' and the potnetial that was there for us to all togeather actual find a truth and increase our combined understanding is lost in all this.

And I do not say I am not equally a party to this 'process', I just say I have recognised that this is what happens. I have tried in the past to 'break through' and occsionaly (like now) make another attempt, but overall beyond a certain point they all such attempts have failed. This may be because it simply is not possible on fora like this, or I do not have the skill to break through, or that I am to 'brainwashed' to be able to break through. Any are possible reasons why, but hwatever the reasons its almost always a failure and after 8 years of such failures you get tired, need a rest, before thinking lets have another try at basdhin my head on a brick wall.

I see your point and I agree on the general view. But how do you expect to have a breakthrough on some not so clear details when you don't even want to accept some very clear things like for example that the attempt to create a "trnc" was legally invalid. In just about all your posts you type "TRNC" in capitals and no quotes in a way that is provoking to people who have been ethnically cleansed from the north.

[EricSeans]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

For someone who admits here that both sides carry blame, why do you adopt a more fascist approach on a "TRNC" forum? You attempt to silence criticism of the illegal regime using methods the TMT would be proud of. You know the old techniques - name a few names, suggest a few aliases and then start suggesting who some people are in real life. Start a personal witch-hunt in other words. All things which are banned even there. Why should someone who would stoop to such despicable levels be trusted anywhere?

Haram olsun.

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

Have a good look at this thread to see the other side of Erolz:

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/62142.asp

[EricSeans]

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

EricSeans is reffering to my posting on cyprus44 forum. This is run by a TC and is not intended to be a forum for cypriots to discuss cyptiot issues but a forum essentialy aimed at and for expats and tourist in the TRNC. He posts there under the name of 'zoots'. I post there under the name of erolz.

But at the end of the day you're another UK immigrant occupying a GC property, eh?

[CopperLine]

Says one turk to another!

You still illegally hold our country at gun point, and you moan about how the forum is run??? or that people still feel sore about the Cyprob?? Why should they feel any different, you are still there, arn't you??

Thanks for high lighting and underlining the point I was trying to make in post Sun May 08, 2011 10:31 pm in this thread so clearly B25.

For your information I am not a Turk. I am of mixed hertiage, thsoe mixed heritages being British and Cypriot. As far as the cypriot part goes my heritage is that of a turkish cypriot rather than a greek cypriot or marionite cypriot or any other kind of CYPRIOT.

Regardless, you are still a turk. Call yourself what you please, you are still a turk.

We have a saying in Cyprus, no matter how many time you wash a dog, he still smells of dog, see the analogy???

You've proved the point I made very well B25.

Regardless, you are still a twat. Call yourself what you please, you are still a twat.

We have a saying in north London, you can't polish a turd, no matter how hard you try, it is still a turd, see the analogy ???

Has this little exchange advanced things one bit ? No. Have you learnt anything ? No. Do you feel more pissed off ? Yes.
What's wrong with the Cyprus Forum ? It is that people like you post things like this without ever engaging your brains. Incontinent bile.

Might we tone down the language a bit please boys. It's not terribly pleasant for a Sunday night.

Agreed, Bill, that was my point.

[bill cobbett]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

For someone who admits here that both sides carry blame, why do you adopt a more fascist approach on a "TRNC" forum? You attempt to silence criticism of the illegal regime using methods the TMT would be proud of. You know the old techniques - name a few names, suggest a few aliases and then start suggesting who some people are in real life. Start a personal witch-hunt in other words. All things which are banned even there. Why should someone who would stoop to such despicable levels be trusted anywhere?

Haram olsun.

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

Have a good look at this thread to see the other side of Erolz:

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/62142.asp

Well, one thing that will say, that have a bee in my bonnet about, is that people should respect anonymity of other posters. That if people wish to be known as zoots or bill cobbett then people really should respect that, and if they come across real ids they should resist temptation, show some self-control and keep the info to themselves.

Not nice to divulge personal info about people.

[EricSeans]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

For someone who admits here that both sides carry blame, why do you adopt a more fascist approach on a "TRNC" forum? You attempt to silence criticism of the illegal regime using methods the TMT would be proud of. You know the old techniques - name a few names, suggest a few aliases and then start suggesting who some people are in real life. Start a personal witch-hunt in other words. All things which are banned even there. Why should someone who would stoop to such despicable levels be trusted anywhere?

Haram olsun.

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

Have a good look at this thread to see the other side of Erolz:

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/62142.asp

Well, one thing that will say, that have a bee in my bonnet about, is that people should respect anonymity of other posters. That if people wish to be known as zoots or bill cobbett then people really should respect that, and if they come across real ids they should resist temptation, show some self-control and keep the info to themselves.

Not nice to divulge personal info about people.

My point exactly, Bill. It's cowardly and despicable to resort to this tactic in "TRNC" forums to remind critics of the regime that dissent is verboten - then come on here to take advantage of democratic freedom of speech.

[erolz3]

Well, one thing that will say, that have a bee in my bonnet about, is that people should respect anonymity of other posters. That if people wish to be known as zoots or bill cobbett then people really should respect that, and if they come across real ids they should resist temptation, show some self-control and keep the info to themselves.

Not nice to divulge personal info about people.

I think as a general rule that is a fine one. However I do think there are exceptions. In nigh on 9 years of posting on Cyprus related forums in all that time I have come accross ONE person only, ever that I think is an exception.

The reason why I think the case of Campbell Thomas is an exception is the purposeful and intentful use of multiple aliases to actively decieve people. Even then my concern would only be to expose consistency accross the many aliases. The linking of one of his aliases to his real world name was done by himself here and not me when he messed up

http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/201 ... /#comments

see comments section. When he realised that he had by mistake exposed one of his more notrious hiddend ID's he said there

"I am one and the same, it’s no secret, but my PC logged me in under Pikey as that was how I joined under the old set-up. Who are you?"

Yet he actualy does do everything to keep these multiple aliases secret.

Like I say the case of Campbell Thomas is a unique expection as far as I am concerned and a result of how he uses multiple aliases. I have no shame in the post I made on cyprus 44 that he refers to. I maintain then and now that being able to know that a poster that says one thing in one place is saying contradictory things in another place with the regularity and specific intent of decieving and misleasding those who read his posts over the years he has been doing this, then exposure of the connection between such aliases is valid.

For example if the poster EricSeans really is, under an another alias, for example supporting a poster who claims that because cypriots have higher rates of thalissimia than say UK population this is proof of higher child sexual abuse amongst cypriots than in the UK, is it not valid to expose such lies and his support for them here as well as there, if there is compelling evidence that he is the same poster and has being doing this kind of thing repeatedly for years now.

Or another example where over there he presents himself as a 'champion' of the poor oppressed victims of TRNC property nigtmares some find themselves in and here under a different ID is calling them carbet baggers and joking about how finding such at the bottom of kyrenia harbour would be a 'start'.

I think it this behaviour, over many many years and many fora using many different aliases, that makes 'EricSeans' an exception.

I wont even begin to talk about the apparent hypocrasy of someone who claims to be disguted at having the connection between their multiple aliases exposed by me, himself here having been enganged in the 'lets try and intimidate the 'carpetbagger' posting here by discovering and exposing their real world identity with implict threat of potnetial legal action against them in the RoC. With such classics as "Do you know who this prick ttoli is? Just trying to narrow down the usual ..." This then from the 'man' who claims to think that it is 'It's cowardly and despicable to' expose peoples real idenitites on forums.

[Pyrpolizer]

From what I understood it seems that EricSeans is a journalist with real name Campbell Thomas who in CF supports the GCs and in "trnc" forums supports the carpet baggers. Who supports contradictory thesises on different forums for the purpose of extracting juice for his profession as a journalist.

That's not bad per se, it just makes his posts worthless of reading or replying.

In the other topic I heard he has properties both in "trnc" most probably stolen GC properties, and in the RoC...

If all that is true then we have phenomenon #2 on the expense of the suffering of all Cypriot people.
(Phenomenon #1 was the defense of the Orams by Cherry Blair).

I wonder what else we will learn in this world...

[Sotos]

From what I understood it seems that EricSeans is a journalist with real name Campbell Thomas who in CF supports the GCs and in "trnc" forums supports the carpet baggers. Who supports contradictory thesises on different forums for the purpose of extracting juice for his profession as a journalist.

I don't think you are right. I had a look at a few posts by zoots and he was against the carpet baggers. I think that is why erolz believes that they are the same person. Because they say the same things. If "EricSeans" would say one thing and "zoots" another thing then how would a connection be made between the two? Also erolz said earlier that EricSeans has property in north but it is not GC property ... so you must be wrong on this also

[Pyrpolizer]

From what I understood it seems that EricSeans is a journalist with real name Campbell Thomas who in CF supports the GCs and in "trnc" forums supports the carpet baggers. Who supports contradictory thesises on different forums for the purpose of extracting juice for his profession as a journalist.

I don't think you are right. I had a look at a few posts by zoots and he was against the carpet baggers. I think that is why erolz believes that they are the same person. Because they say the same things. If "EricSeans" would say one thing and "zoots" another thing then how would a connection be made between the two? Also erolz said earlier that EricSeans has property in north but it is not GC property ... so you must be wrong on this also

Thx Sotos.

I guess i shouldn't have messed in this on the first place.
Mea Culpa