Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Elroz, the GC stole nothing from you. You were NEVER entitled to anything in the first place. What you had GIVEN to you by the foreigners, you tried to use against the legal indiginous majority of the Cyprus inhabitants.

Nothing ever changes here does it.

What was 'given' to us in the 60's agreements, was given to us under a process that at the time was entirely legal in every possible jusrisdiction both national, including Greece and international, including the UN. That you felt it was unfair and imposed and that rule of law as it exsited then, national and international was unjust does not change that reality at all. That you today can still claim that if you feel national and international law as recognised by every compentent authority in the entire world was or is unfair and unjust to you, you had and have every right to use non legal means to ignore it and overule is a huge obstacle to us ever being able to sort out the mess we have created in Cyprus as far as I am concerned.

So was Gadafi's government until a while ago or the Assad government in Syria. When undemocratic systems are imposed which are unfair for the many and they serve only the few then the many revolt, and rightly so!

[Pyrpolizer]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

For someone who admits here that both sides carry blame, why do you adopt a more fascist approach on a "TRNC" forum? You attempt to silence criticism of the illegal regime using methods the TMT would be proud of. You know the old techniques - name a few names, suggest a few aliases and then start suggesting who some people are in real life. Start a personal witch-hunt in other words. All things which are banned even there. Why should someone who would stoop to such despicable levels be trusted anywhere?

Haram olsun.

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

[erolz3]

But you have no problem to participate there even though it has such rules.

No I participate there knowing its rules, just as many others do like Eric Seans does to give one other example and just as I do here.

Every time you come here I see you complain about this forum. Do you ever complain about how that other forum is run? Why don't you stop posting there in protest? I still think the rules there suit you fine

I no longer complain here about how this forum is run and have not done so for at least 5 years or so now. When I did complain about, having briefly been a mod here btw, and realised that it was not going to change, I along with others set up a different forum. At that time I hoped to continue using both, but was stopped from doing so by this sites owner. I did not cry that it was a facistic attempt to silence critism of the RoC either when that hppened.

What I 'complain about' these days here is notning to do with how the forum is run. I know that and I accept it when I choose to post (same as with cyprus44). What is an issue for me, is that my interest in posting, what drives me to do it, is a hope that some kind of 'progress' can be made, either in my understanding or others. After posting here for nigh on 7 years it is apparent that such a hope is in vain. That is why these days I pop on, see that the hope of making any progress , either way is in vain and stop again. Nothing to do with how the forum is run, but a realisation of the limits of ANY forums to make progress on these kind of issues. Over time hope rebuilds that something has changed, I try posting and come away realising that it has not, and withdraw again.

[erolz3]

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

EricSeans is reffering to my posting on cyprus44 forum. This is run by a TC and is not intended to be a forum for cypriots to discuss cyptiot issues but a forum essentialy aimed at and for expats and tourist in the TRNC. He posts there under the name of 'zoots'. I post there under the name of erolz.

[bill cobbett]

Could you please provide a link with an example? I am very curious. What's this "trnc" forum?

EricSeans is reffering to my posting on cyprus44 forum. This is run by a TC and is not intended to be a forum for cypriots to discuss cyptiot issues but a forum essentialy aimed at and for expats and tourist in the TRNC. He posts there under the name of 'zoots'. I post there under the name of erolz.

ZOOTS!!!! Hang on a bleeding mo, ... ttoli accused me of being this zoots last night.

[Sotos]

That is why these days I pop on, see that the hope of making any progress , either way is in vain and stop again. Nothing to do with how the forum is run, but a realisation of the limits of ANY forums to make progress on these kind of issues. Over time hope rebuilds that something has changed, I try posting and come away realising that it has not, and withdraw again.

Fair enough. But it seems you expect us to change while I didn't see any change from you. Every time you tell us the same things. If you can not change then why should you expect that we will? I suggest the next time you come here to be changed yourself. otherwise don't bother

[yorgozlu]

I do not set the rules on cyprus44 and I am not a mod there and I have no control how it is run.

But you have no problem to participate there even though it has such rules. Every time you come here I see you complain about this forum. Do you ever complain about how that other forum is run? Why don't you stop posting there in protest? I still think the rules there suit you fine

Thats not so easy............someone has to keep them at bay.

[erolz3]

ZOOTS!!!! Hang on a bleeding mo, ... ttoli accused me of being this zoots last night.

Often people wrongly suspect and accuse a given poster of being one of Campbell Thomas' many many aliases. Such false accusations are something he will use and does use to try and continualy muddy the waters as to the connections between his many ID's.

I, unlike some, do not make such accusations lightly. I do not for example agree with ttoli suspcion with regards to you. However I assure you that the evidence that the poster know here as EricSeans is also the poster currently know on cyprus44 forum as Zoots is overwhealming. You could discover this for yourself from priamary evidence of the posts of each on each forum but it would take considerable effort to do so. I would welcome you putting in such effort but understand that is unlikley.

A simpler appraoch if you have any interest would be to simply ask EricSeans here if he posts on cyprus44 under the name of zoots and see what he says.

[erolz3]

Fair enough. But it seems you expect us to change while I didn't see any change from you. Every time you tell us the same things. If you can not change then why should you expect that we will? I suggest the next time you come here to be changed yourself. otherwise don't bother

It is not really a case of I expect you to change without me changing. THe hope is more that we can have the 'space' were that is possible and whilst over the first year or so of participation in a place like this I did actualy change my perspectives on some things, having learnt some things and accepted them , past that point there is no further progress for me or others seemingly. The 'space' gets closed down.

Just take for example this simple issue , of is any and every document produced in the TRNC automatically legaly invalid internationaly simply because the TRNC is unrecognised. We could , togeather, potential make real progress on our combined understanding of the truth about this. However in reality we never do, because if I suggest it might be true, the automatic assumption by even the sincere, is that I am somehow trying to gain an 'advantage' for my side regadless of the actual truth. This leads to responses that seek to 'destroy' what I suggest might be the case, not motivated by a desire to know the truth by by a desire to counter what I say. Then there are also those that do not want to know the truth regardless because it might be true and they would rather people beleived an untruth that benefited 'thier side' than discover that it does not in this case.

So what starts as a simple 'inquiry' gets immediate met with 'so what about if documents etc, it doesnt matter because you stole from us, your are thieves, you are this that and the other', which lead to responses of 'we didnt , we aren't , you did to and so and so on' and the potnetial that was there for us to all togeather actual find a truth and increase our combined understanding is lost in all this.

And I do not say I am not equally a party to this 'process', I just say I have recognised that this is what happens. I have tried in the past to 'break through' and occsionaly (like now) make another attempt, but overall beyond a certain point they all such attempts have failed. This may be because it simply is not possible on fora like this, or I do not have the skill to break through, or that I am to 'brainwashed' to be able to break through. Any are possible reasons why, but hwatever the reasons its almost always a failure and after 8 years of such failures you get tired, need a rest, before thinking lets have another try at basdhin my head on a brick wall.

[CopperLine]

What is an issue for me, is that my interest in posting, what drives me to do it, is a hope that some kind of 'progress' can be made, either in my understanding or others. After posting here for nigh on 7 years it is apparent that such a hope is in vain. That is why these days I pop on, see that the hope of making any progress , either way is in vain and stop again. Nothing to do with how the forum is run, but a realisation of the limits of ANY forums to make progress on these kind of issues. Over time hope rebuilds that something has changed, I try posting and come away realising that it has not, and withdraw again.

My sentiments exactly, erolz3