Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

We didn't steal anything from you.

What you stole from us were our rights granted to us as a community under the 1960 agreements.

As much as you may deride such agreements as unfair and imposed, despite them having been agreed, the fact remains that we (TC as a community in Cyprus) had something (rights under the 60's agreements) and that these were removed from us in the period 63-65 without any recongised due process in national or international law. That is they were taken from us, aginst our will and without proper legal due process. That is a fair defnintion of stolen I would suggest.

I am not pointing this out to try and score points, but something we had was taken from us as a comunity and denial of that reality does nothing to help us sort out the mess we are in today in my view.

Government frozen and bankrupt because you weren't getting your split municipalities, letters found in govt tc ministers office describing the withdrawal from the govt and the manner in which it should be carried out.
The Turkish PM pleading with kutchuk to return to their positions in parliament and govt.....seems like both communities wanted those rights stolen from you erolz.

[quattro]

We didn't steal anything from you.

What you stole from us were our rights granted to us as a community under the 1960 agreements.

As much as you may deride such agreements as unfair and imposed, despite them having been agreed, the fact remains that we (TC as a community in Cyprus) had something (rights under the 60's agreements) and that these were removed from us in the period 63-65 without any recongised due process in national or international law. That is they were taken from us, aginst our will and without proper legal due process. That is a fair defnintion of stolen I would suggest.

I am not pointing this out to try and score points, but something we had was taken from us as a comunity and denial of that reality does nothing to help us sort out the mess we are in today in my view.

Erol my friend
Nobody can blame only one side always there are two sides in every coin ......I am thinking of donating that F........ Book . TO ALL OF YOU READ THAT BOOK .

[antifon]

[erolz3]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

[DT.]

Quattro I am not saying that both sides to not carry some blame. I have repeated on here and elsewhere constantly that both communites bear responsibility and blame, though I do argue to what degree in the various time periods. We can (and do) carry some of the blame but that fact does not show that nothing was stolen from us. Its a different argument / discussion. Soto's claim that I was responding to was that nothing was stolen from us (TC community) by the GC community.

I disagree, thats all. If the rights granted to us were unjust and unfair, then they should have been removed or challenged legaly. They were not, they were taken from us without any valid legal due process. To say that no legal due process was needed to remove them from us because they were 'unfair' or 'unjust' doesnt wash with me, sorry. Not if you beleive in legality and the rule of law. If something is unjust then challenge it in courts. If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

DT I don't want to go over old ground all over again. However , refusing to approve budgets is a vaild and legal form of protest, used around the world, especially in the US between Senate and Presidency. The municiplaites issue should have legaly been solved by the constitutional court but Makarios refused to abide by this legal bodies rulings. Withdrawing from government is a valid and legal form of protest, used the world over and does not legaly abrogate your rights in doing so. The TC leadership formaly requested a return to government under its legal rights granted under the 60's agreements as documented by the UN. This has been covered so many times before and this round and round that same discussions is on reason I seldom post these days. One example here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#199501

The point I am trying to get across is that simply telling TC that nothing was stolen from them, when plainly they believe something was will never move us forward. We did have rights under the 60's agreements, these agreements were considered legal by the entire world at the time they were drawn up and agreed. These rights were removed without any legal due process, national or international. The only way they could be considered to have been removed legaly is via legal due process. Saying they werent fair in the first place thus we can remove them without any valid legal due process is not how it works. Not then and not today. It just does not matter how fair or unfair agreements signed may be, one party can not just decide they are unfair without legal due process and expect the other party to say 'oh thats ok then'.

Anyway clearly we are no further forward than we were years ago. Continue to believe that nothing was taken from the TC community in 63-65 if you like. My personal belief is that choosing to believe that can only hinder our chances of sorting out the mess today but maybe I am wrong or maybe it makes no difference what any of us believe.

You do realise how absurd your protest regarding rights being removed illegally Sounds right now while you're typing from some place called " the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus".

[Pyrpolizer]

We didn't steal anything from you.

What you stole from us were our rights granted to us as a community under the 1960 agreements.

As much as you may deride such agreements as unfair and imposed, despite them having been agreed, the fact remains that we (TC as a community in Cyprus) had something (rights under the 60's agreements) and that these were removed from us in the period 63-65 without any recongised due process in national or international law. That is they were taken from us, aginst our will and without proper legal due process. That is a fair defnintion of stolen I would suggest.

I am not pointing this out to try and score points, but something we had was taken from us as a comunity and denial of that reality does nothing to help us sort out the mess we are in today in my view.

So why aren't you claiming your rights back? What's preventing you?

[erolz3]

You do realise how absurd your protest regarding rights being removed illegally Sounds right now while you're typing from some place called " the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus".

That I am saying so from somewhere stolen from you does not mean you did not steal from us.

So why aren't you claiming your rights back? What's preventing you?

That we may not be claiming back our rights does not mean you did not steal anything from us. I do not agree actualy that we are doing nothing and have done nothing to reclaim these stolen rights but thats a different discussion.

The claim I was addressing was that nothing was taken / stolen from the TC community and that alone and trying to explain that from where I sit, something was stolen / taken from us (as a community).

Anyway as ever when I pop back onto this forum, I realise once again why I so rarely do so these days. Please do excuse me if I bow out again.

[Sotos]

If the courts uphold the unjust, then change the laws.

The courts that TCs + foreigners had the majority and the GCs were forced to be a minority? How would such court serve justice when it was made to be unjust to us? And how would we change the laws without TC approval? You imposed something that was unfair to us and there was no way to change it in any other way! Thats the truth. We stole from you in the same way that people steal the power from those who take power by force and are not democratically elected!

[B25]

Please do excuse me if I bow out again.

Yawn!

Elroz, the GC stole nothing from you. You were NEVER entitled to anything in the first place. What you had GIVEN to you by the foreigners, you tried to use against the legal indiginous majority of the Cyprus inhabitants.

You were so used to having that silver spoon in your mouths, that as soon as you had to start fending for yourselves, you began the crocodile tears.

You are holding hostage 37% of my island, you are the common theives, you are the invader and YOU have the audacity to complain about us??? FFS.

As for coming to this forum, better stay put on your Crap44 site, where everyone agrees with you and loves you so much.

Law and order you say??? thats rich coming from a pseudo state, founded on ethinic cleansing and mass rape and slaughter. Oh, I forgot, better ask your carpet baggers how your law and order is treating them, I think they won't agree with your angel like attitude.

[Pyrpolizer]

You do realise how absurd your protest regarding rights being removed illegally Sounds right now while you're typing from some place called " the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus".

That I am saying so from somewhere stolen from you does not mean you did not steal from us.

So why aren't you claiming your rights back? What's preventing you?

That we may not be claiming back our rights does not mean you did not steal anything from us. I do not agree actualy that we are doing nothing and have done nothing to reclaim these stolen rights but thats a different discussion.

The claim I was addressing was that nothing was taken / stolen from the TC community and that alone and trying to explain that from where I sit, something was stolen / taken from us (as a community).

Anyway as ever when I pop back onto this forum, I realise once again why I so rarely do so these days. Please do excuse me if I bow out again.

The matter of whether any rights have been stolen from you is questionable.
Yet when someone has such claims the first thing he has to do is claim his rights back, or else go to the UN to get international support. You may not agree that you are doing nothing to claim your rights back but you are not showing me any evidence to support your non agreement

Unless of course you mean you are actually claiming double to tripple rights which is a totally different issue.