Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

the sell out is a TC or a GC that thinks they "own" their part of the island, leaves very little room for Cypriots. unless, as Individuals all of them can understand that in any "democracy" there are Universal Principals which they should be prepared to defend, and for which each has a single and equal (identical) vote, neither will find security here.

and if anyone of these TCs or GCs feel that their exclusivity is anything more than equal, they are traitors. Cyprus being Bicommunal is a Unitary State with a Federal Government where these distinctions, ethnicities, are identified in National Assemblies because we as one People choose it to be so. where in this identity as Persons these Majorities serve their Electorate with an agenda that respects and recognises Minorities amongst them.

...that's my Cyprus.

if Justice for the displaced and for the missing is to be seen, and as Humans we make this a priority, the political geography cannot remain the same. if the Green Line is to stay, enclaves should spot the island so that the People (at least some) should return as communities. certainly, this effort will encourage association and movement, and it makes Cyprus a safer place without a single frontier easily militarised. what better way is there for us to define Bizonal; Sovereignty as one People: Cypriots, and as Maronites, Turks, Greeks, (and others if as a whole we choose), as Persons we would be giving in an ability to sustain ourselves.

...i think this is the reality, we still live at the impasse in denial.

[Pyrpolizer]

Thats the sell out small or large state the GCs being the larger population can if they want easily take the one seat they need to yet again push us to one side. Do you understand that this is a very important issue for us and one we fear the most why not address it to guarantee both sides participation is maintained and cannot be watered down or removed?

So
a)You do not accept to reduce your space so as to to have 99-100% TC population that will guarantee your 5 seats.
b)You want a much bigger chunk and a written guarantee from GCs that they will never elect one to erode your 5 representation or else quotas, or else no political rights to GCs residing in "your" state, or else violation of EU pronciples
c) You want a written guarantee that the Senators will never be bribed.

Are these your objections to Kiks Plan or is there anything else?

[Kikapu]

Thats the sell out small or large state the GCs being the larger population can if they want easily take the one seat they need to yet again push us to one side. Do you understand that this is a very important issue for us and one we fear the most why not address it to guarantee both sides participation is maintained and cannot be watered down or removed?

So
a)You do not accept to reduce your space so as to to have 99-100% TC population that will guarantee your 5 seats.
b)You want a much bigger chunk and a written guarantee from GCs that they will never elect one to erode your 5 representation or else quotas, or else no political rights to GCs residing in "your" state, or else violation of EU pronciples
c) You want a written guarantee that the Senators will never be bribed.

Are these your objections to Kiks Plan or is there anything else?

Pyro,

Lets understand what VP's objectives are which my plan stands in his way, which are the real reasons for his bitching about the plan despite giving the north state extra protection with the "Grandfathered-in Population" clause, which VP very conveniently does not mention. VP wants a large north (TC) state with a guaranteed TC senators for the upper house for the north (TC) state regardless how many GCs may choose to live in the north state, because once the territory size/borders has been agreed on, then anytime the north wants to create a constitutional crises to have another go at Taksim, all they need to do is withdraw those TC senators from the upper house and the lower house TC representatives from the government, and presto, they will be on their way to declare the north state as independent, and all the GCs living in the north will face eviction one way or another, just as the Armenians did from Nicosia area in the past as well as the Greeks in Istanbul. Ordinarily, if elected senators/representatives walk off the government it's no big deal. The government continues to function until they re-elects others to fill those posts. But if we have a so called "partnership" where it requires to have senators/representatives from both communities to run the government exclusively and if one party does not want to play anymore and wants to withdraw, we will have the same thing that happened in 1963. This is what VP and the NeoPartitionists are counting on, specially now that the RoC is in the EU.

Either VP does not understand how Federation and Democracy works, or that he is ALL propaganda. My guess is, he doesn't know much about neither. Here is a questioned I asked VP few times as to what the worse could happen if the north state did lose 1-2 senate seats to the GCs voting in the north if the north state size were to remain what it is today.

I go back to my question for you. What would be a bill that would be against the TC's interest, considering the fact, the TC state will control 99% of what goes on in the TC state. The Upper and Lower House is mainly for national and International based voting and not on ethnicity or on the states themselves.

1. Stop trade with Turkey.

2. Ban Turkish workers.

3. Ban Casinos.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

After all VPs so called concerns for the GCs taking any possible seats from the TCs in the north state ( VP recently admitted that not too many GCs will move to the north state to live under TC administration regardless what the north states territorial size may be) which they may pass laws to the detriment of the TCs, the above concerns VP had was what may be a detriments to Turkey's interests. VP has more concerns for Turkey's interests than he does for the TCs, which is why VP's concerns cannot be taken seriously. He is on the side of Turkey and not the TCs.

[Pyrpolizer]

Kikapu, I think VP objects to your plan firstly because it comes from you (LOL), and secondly for another reason that for the moment I only suspect but I would like to hear it or drug it out from what VP will reply to my questions.

Furthermore VP does not seem to understand that WHATEVER agreement WILL include risks for BOTH sides. If ANY side thinks the other side will not apply the agreement in a spirit of good will then we better stop even negotiating for a solution.

Like you very well said, it is quite possible for the TCs to create an artificial crisis like in the 60s, withdraw their representation to both the lower house the senate as well as from the Federal Government and declare an independent state. Theoretically that’s possible, practically it will very difficult, but not impossible. Furthermore it will have consequences. What should we the GCs do to avoid such a scenario? Hung a rope on the neck on each and every TC with an automatic trigger if that happens? Put them sign us worthless papers of warantee?

Similarly for us the GCs it is the matter of fear from the Turkish army.One of the things that are impossible to change from the Anan Plan, not because we have to stick to them but because there is no other option, is the demilitarisation schedule. During this demilitarisation period the Turkish Army will always be more in numbers, better equipped, get re-enforcements from Turkey within 1 hour etc etc. If anything goes wrong during the first months of the agreement the Turkish army can declare an emergency situation, seal the TC cons. State, and then go on for asking an independent state. What should we the GCs do in any agreement to avoid this other than just take the risk?

Asking for warantees is nonsense especially if those warantees are against human rights and EU aquis.All we can do is just take care the agreement does not leave much room for our fears to happen. But like I said no agreement will ever offer us 100% certainty on ANY issue.

VP is scared shit (or pretends to be) the GCs will dominate the TCs because they are more in numbers, have better economy and deep inside VP thinks the GCs have smarter genes (LOL). The only valid argument here is that indeed today the GCs have a better economy. Other than that he TCs are equally good bussinessmen, and they will balance out with time. Furthermore TCs can rely on the huge Turkish bussiness/syndicate money etc that the GCs cannot, as you know Greece does not offer such oppurtunities.In fact we the GCs go there and invest, not the other way round…

Now lets see the 3 examples VP gave on which the GCs might be interested to bend their will:
1. Stop trade with Turkey.
2. Ban Turkish workers.
3. Ban Casinos.

All 3 issues are already covered by EU laws. No GC or TC senator can change those laws. Either VP likes it or not those casinos in the occupied will be under the microscope from the EU directly not from the GCs. Those who are doing money laundrying will close.The rest will stay. But if VP thinks the TCs will be able to use the senate to pass laws that the Turkish workers will have more access to Cyprus than other non EU citizens she is dreaming.Turkey is not an EU country, and her workers cannot flood Europe via Cyprus. As simple as that.

Basically there is nothing extraordinary anyone can do in an EU Country. 99% of all important issues come directly from Brussels. Add to that that our currency is the Euro we can not even have an independent financial policy…

[Pyrpolizer]

If u r aware; we, a bunch of people just discuss here about some issues related to Cyprus problem. Our incompetent, self interested politicians and intelligentsia r not even aware of the existence of this forum... if even we discover the perfect solution and all agree upon it; woouldn't change the agenda of those incompetent politicians and intelligentsia... the only fact regarding my posts on this forum is; it makes me happy to share my knowledge and arguements with others...

That's what I thought also.
Until I discovered that most of Christofia's proposals including the rotating presidency come from this VERY forum. Not because it is an excellent forum, but because it seems to be the only one dealing with Cyprob.
Credits go to Kikapu and Kifeas who had an excellent discussion about intervoting between communities. The conclussion from that discussion was also adopted by Christofias in his proposals.

Besides my friend in this small place 1 per 1000 is a current or ex MP/Minister/politician. I estimate at least 3 present in this very forum.

Plus myself that makes it 4!!

NB How do you explain Admin's insisting on quality posts? This means he wants "juice". Why?

[ZoC]

Our incompetent, self interested politicians and intelligentsia r not even aware of the existence of this forum...

not true... i've been aware of u for quite some time now.

if even we discover the perfect solution and all agree upon it; woouldn't change the agenda of those incompetent politicians and intelligentsia...

don't lump me in with the incompetent politicos, twerp.

[Kikapu]

Like you very well said, it is quite possible for the TCs to create an artificial crisis like in the 60s, withdraw their representation to both the lower house the senate as well as from the Federal Government and declare an independent state. Theoretically that’s possible, practically it will very difficult, but not impossible. Furthermore it will have consequences. What should we the GCs do to avoid such a scenario? Hung a rope on the neck on each and every TC with an automatic trigger if that happens? Put them sign us worthless papers of warantee?

Pyro,

Actually, the above scenario would apply to the GCs also, if they too were interested in having their own "Taksim", but in all reality, it is the north who would be eager to look for another Taksim down the road.

Now, the above scenario would have been very possible had the AP passed, but if we have a True Federation which is what I'm talking about, much like in the USA with EU Principles, then there wouldn't be any possibility for either side to secede from the union, unless both sides would agreed to do so, and even then, it would require a very large majority from both sides to make the agreement to become a reality, just as I've described it in my plan. We do have provisions in the US constitution that would make it possible for any state to secede from the union, but chances for them to succeed in seceding is virtually next to none, because ALL the states under the Federal umbrella are joined at the hip which requires majority of the states to agree to anyone state to secede from the union. This is the kind of policy we need in Cyprus. The bar for seceding from the union has to be so high, that it will be virtually impossible to obtain it. This is how any one side will be discouraged from having ideas to start any deliberate attempts to stir things up to secede from the union. Under the above agreement of True Federation with EU Principles, we can even keep the size of the north/south states as they are now for all I care, providing everyone's Democratic and Human Rights would be respected of those living in those states, which the AP did not allow for, amongst many other things.

[Viewpoint]

Thats the sell out small or large state the GCs being the larger population can if they want easily take the one seat they need to yet again push us to one side. Do you understand that this is a very important issue for us and one we fear the most why not address it to guarantee both sides participation is maintained and cannot be watered down or removed?

So
a)You do not accept to reduce your space so as to to have 99-100% TC population that will guarantee your 5 seats.
b)You want a much bigger chunk and a written guarantee from GCs that they will never elect one to erode your 5 representation or else quotas, or else no political rights to GCs residing in "your" state, or else violation of EU pronciples
c) You want a written guarantee that the Senators will never be bribed.

Are these your objections to Kiks Plan or is there anything else?

What difference does it make whether we reduce or not, the GCs have the upper hand with numbers when it comes to population and if they want to take the 1 seat they need from the TC state they can do this very easily.

There has to be a guaranteed balance in the upper house to ensure we do not get pushed to one side.

[Pyrpolizer]

Thats the sell out small or large state the GCs being the larger population can if they want easily take the one seat they need to yet again push us to one side. Do you understand that this is a very important issue for us and one we fear the most why not address it to guarantee both sides participation is maintained and cannot be watered down or removed?

So
a)You do not accept to reduce your space so as to to have 99-100% TC population that will guarantee your 5 seats.
b)You want a much bigger chunk and a written guarantee from GCs that they will never elect one to erode your 5 representation or else quotas, or else no political rights to GCs residing in "your" state, or else violation of EU pronciples
c) You want a written guarantee that the Senators will never be bribed.

Are these your objections to Kiks Plan or is there anything else?

What difference does it make whether we reduce or not, the GCs have the upper hand with numbers when it comes to population and if they want to take the 1 seat they need from the TC state they can do this very easily.

There has to be a guaranteed balance in the upper house to ensure we do not get pushed to one side.

a)it makes a difference and both Kikapu and me explained you tens of times. Why are you avoiding the issue?
b)Why do you avoid telling us exactly what your warantee implies
c)You want a written warantee that the senators will not be bribed as well?

[Pyrpolizer]

Like you very well said, it is quite possible for the TCs to create an artificial crisis like in the 60s, withdraw their representation to both the lower house the senate as well as from the Federal Government and declare an independent state. Theoretically that’s possible, practically it will very difficult, but not impossible. Furthermore it will have consequences. What should we the GCs do to avoid such a scenario? Hung a rope on the neck on each and every TC with an automatic trigger if that happens? Put them sign us worthless papers of warantee?

Pyro,

Actually, the above scenario would apply to the GCs also, if they too were interested in having their own "Taksim", but in all reality, it is the north who would be eager to look for another Taksim down the road.

Now, the above scenario would have been very possible had the AP passed, but if we have a True Federation which is what I'm talking about, much like in the USA with EU Principles, then there wouldn't be any possibility for either side to secede from the union, unless both sides would agreed to do so, and even then, it would require a very large majority from both sides to make the agreement to become a reality, just as I've described it in my plan. We do have provisions in the US constitution that would make it possible for any state to secede from the union, but chances for them to succeed in seceding is virtually next to none, because ALL the states under the Federal umbrella are joined at the hip which requires majority of the states to agree to anyone state to secede from the union. This is the kind of policy we need in Cyprus. The bar for seceding from the union has to be so high, that it will be virtually impossible to obtain it. This is how any one side will be discouraged from having ideas to start any deliberate attempts to stir things up to secede from the union. Under the above agreement of True Federation with EU Principles, we can even keep the size of the north/south states as they are now for all I care, providing everyone's Democratic and Human Rights would be respected of those living in those states, which the AP did not allow for, amongst many other things.

I agree with you Kikapu.

The Anan Plan let huge doors for it to happen, in fact i would be surprised if it wouldn't.

Lets see if VP will ever decide to tell us any anything meaningful, like for example "Shut up you idiots I want partition, I told you so 100 times, leave me alone with your solution plans"