Cyprus-Forum.com

[quattro]

Quatro you can always start from here. Good luck

http://reut-institute.org/en/Publicatio ... ionId=3207
http://www.stefanwolff.com/files/Electo ... Design.pdf

You have been WARNED

You evil you just throw me to the sharks .

D.................................

[Pyrpolizer]

Quatro you can always start from here. Good luck

http://reut-institute.org/en/Publicatio ... ionId=3207
http://www.stefanwolff.com/files/Electo ... Design.pdf

You have been WARNED

You evil you just throw me to the sharks .

D.................................

Well, i can't afford to lose another good friend to the sharks.
You are excused quatro.

I will make my last effort now:

Insan my friend (i hope) that's a heavy cross, what did i ever do to deserve it?

[insan]

Insan, we had a lengthy discussion on "your" Consociational Democracy couple of years ago which was very clear that it had already failed in Cyprus before. Consociational Democracy cannot function when one party wanted Enosis and the other wanted Taksim. Enosis dream has ended for the GCs but Taksim dream is an on going for the TCs, therefore, Consociational Democracy cannot work in Cyprus, not at least until TCs Taksim dream has also ended, and even then, I doubt it will ever work in Cyprus.


1. So excecutive power is only shared by "significant groups", which means the other groups are considered to be insignificant and therefore can be ignored and have their Democratic and Human Rights violated.!

2. There never was a segmented "significant groups", because all the groups mostly lived in mixed villages, therefore, there could not be "segmented autonomy" given to any group in 1960.

3. There never was a proportianal representation and allocation of positions, because more were given to the TC's at 30%, when they only represented 18% of the population, therefore once again, "consociationalism" failed in it's purpose.

4. Minority had a veto power on all issues.

It is time to bring True Democracy to Cyprus once and for all as it is practiced all over Europe and the west in general and stop playing games with failed experiments such as "consociationalism".!

First of all, Kikapu; consociationalism has nothing to do with Enosis, Taksim or other nonsense you suggested. Consociationalism is a necessity for every deeply divided, multi-etnic, multi-national, multi religious country...


1- Executive power is dhared by significant ethnic/national/religious groups because other groups much smaller in population size line up with either of the significant groups not because as u illogically and ill mindedly suggested they r insagnificant.

2- Segmental autonomy in case of Cyprus pre-1974 means that decision making authority is delegated to separate segments as much as possible... it doesn't have to be on territorial basis... Communal Chambers of 2 significant national groups of Cyprus was the product of segmental autonomy...

for the details please check the below link, page 29.

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=at7 ... 22&f=false

3- 30% quota was allocated to TCs for proportional representation because when TCs began to struggle against the GC dominance at beginning of the British rule their population ratio was nearly 1/3 of the total population of Cyprus. During the British rule TCs were represented in the legislative assembly with the same quota; 1/3.... Most probably TC leadership hope and wished the return of TCs who fled or emigrated to other countries for various reasons... However, after 1960 there had never been such a peacefull environment that would encourage emigrated TCs to return...

Moreover, during the talks between the years 1968-1971; TC leadership accepted the reduction of TC quota to then TC population ratio but this issue was not the only problem of GC leadership... they would continue to struggle until they transform the RoC based on consociational democracy into a majoritarian regime then go to a referandum and annex Cyprus with Greece... after the fall of Junta of course because Enosis with Greece under the Junta was neither in the interest of Makarios nor the GC left who constituted 1/3 of GC population.

4- What's wrong with a legitimate veto based on legitimate Cyprus constitution and laws? Why don't u consider this veto right as a tool to protect the 2 significant national groups of Cyprus from each others tyranny and as a mechanism that would urge them to consociate, cooperate, negotiate to find out a common ground on issues that r vital to them?

Sorry Kikapu but u have a very ill minded personality... God save Cypriots from the persons like u...

[Kikapu]

Insan, we had a lengthy discussion on "your" Consociational Democracy couple of years ago which was very clear that it had already failed in Cyprus before. Consociational Democracy cannot function when one party wanted Enosis and the other wanted Taksim. Enosis dream has ended for the GCs but Taksim dream is an on going for the TCs, therefore, Consociational Democracy cannot work in Cyprus, not at least until TCs Taksim dream has also ended, and even then, I doubt it will ever work in Cyprus.


1. So excecutive power is only shared by "significant groups", which means the other groups are considered to be insignificant and therefore can be ignored and have their Democratic and Human Rights violated.!

2. There never was a segmented "significant groups", because all the groups mostly lived in mixed villages, therefore, there could not be "segmented autonomy" given to any group in 1960.

3. There never was a proportianal representation and allocation of positions, because more were given to the TC's at 30%, when they only represented 18% of the population, therefore once again, "consociationalism" failed in it's purpose.

4. Minority had a veto power on all issues.

It is time to bring True Democracy to Cyprus once and for all as it is practiced all over Europe and the west in general and stop playing games with failed experiments such as "consociationalism".!

First of all, Kikapu; consociationalism has nothing to do with Enosis, Taksim or other nonsense you suggested. Consociationalism is a necessity for every deeply divided, multi-etnic, multi-national, multi religious country...


1- Executive power is dhared by significant ethnic/national/religious groups because other groups much smaller in population size line up with either of the significant groups not because as u illogically and ill mindedly suggested they r insagnificant.

2- Segmental autonomy in case of Cyprus pre-1974 means that decision making authority is delegated to separate segments as much as possible... it doesn't have to be on territorial basis... Communal Chambers of 2 significant national groups of Cyprus was the product of segmental autonomy...

for the details please check the below link, page 29.

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=at7 ... 22&f=false

3- 30% quota was allocated to TCs for proportional representation because when TCs began to struggle against the GC dominance at beginning of the British rule their population ratio was nearly 1/3 of the total population of Cyprus. During the British rule TCs were represented in the legislative assembly with the same quota; 1/3.... Most probably TC leadership hope and wished the return of TCs who fled or emigrated to other countries for various reasons... However, after 1960 there had never been such a peacefull environment that would encourage emigrated TCs to return...

Moreover, during the talks between the years 1968-1971; TC leadership accepted the reduction of TC quota to then TC population ratio but this issue was not the only problem of GC leadership... they would continue to struggle until they transform the RoC based on consociational democracy into a majoritarian regime then go to a referandum and annex Cyprus with Greece... after the fall of Junta of course because Enosis with Greece under the Junta was neither in the interest of Makarios nor the GC left who constituted 1/3 of GC population.

4- What's wrong with a legitimate veto based on legitimate Cyprus constitution and laws? Why don't u consider this veto right as a tool to protect the 2 significant national groups of Cyprus from each others tyranny and as a mechanism that would urge them to consociate, cooperate, negotiate to find out a common ground on issues that r vital to them?

Sorry Kikapu but u have a very ill minded personality... God save Cypriots from the persons like u...

Insan,

I don't want to debate this topic again as it has been done before. The bottom line is, "your" consociational democracy has been tried and has failed miserably already. Perhaps had the "significant national groups" did not have intentions for it to fail, (even had the principles of consociational democracy for Cyprus was not altered to begin with to make it worse, which it was) just because they were after Enosis and Taksim. At the moment Taksim is still alive for one of the "significant groups" which will once again will make sure that "your" consociational democracy will fail in order to have a permanent partition. Why go through all the trouble again.

BBF is what's on the table with a Federation. A USA style of Federation designed for Cyprus and for all Cypriots will force both the north and south states to be "joined at the hip" without a chance for Taksim and Enosis attempts again. I've already gave you my version as to how this can work with the below plan, which may shock you, but it even has a veto power built in it, but as I remember, you have rejected this plan and the ONLY reason I can think of as to why you have done that, along with VP, is because you want to keep the Taksim options open and not commit to a Unified Cyprus, which "your" consociational democracy keeps your Taksim options alive and well. But hey, what the hell do I know. Perhaps the GCs will go along with "your" consociational democracy after all, so lets wait and see what happens.!

"Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!"
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

[Viewpoint]

Newly named "Kikapooos sell out the TCs Plan"

[Pyrpolizer]

When Kikapu presented his plan

I congratulate you on your hard work and effort to find a balanced structure that will provide both sides the right to stop laws that are not wanted.

And now:

We should rename yoru plan as "Kikapoos sells out the TCs Plan"

[Viewpoint]

When Kikapu presented his plan

I congratulate you on your hard work and effort to find a balanced structure that will provide both sides the right to stop laws that are not wanted.

And now:

We should rename yoru plan as "Kikapoos sells out the TCs Plan"

But if you proceed you will see that I clearly identified a flaw which sold us TCs out and gave the whole island to GC domination.

[quattro]

When Kikapu presented his plan

I congratulate you on your hard work and effort to find a balanced structure that will provide both sides the right to stop laws that are not wanted.

And now:

We should rename yoru plan as "Kikapoos sells out the TCs Plan"

But if you proceed you will see that I clearly identified a flaw which sold us TCs out and gave the whole island to GC domination.

Re Vp not to GCs mana mou to CYPRIOTS AND ONLY CYPRIOTS

[Pyrpolizer]

Insan, we had a lengthy discussion on "your" Consociational Democracy couple of years ago which was very clear that it had already failed in Cyprus before. Consociational Democracy cannot function when one party wanted Enosis and the other wanted Taksim. Enosis dream has ended for the GCs but Taksim dream is an on going for the TCs, therefore, Consociational Democracy cannot work in Cyprus, not at least until TCs Taksim dream has also ended, and even then, I doubt it will ever work in Cyprus.


1. So excecutive power is only shared by "significant groups", which means the other groups are considered to be insignificant and therefore can be ignored and have their Democratic and Human Rights violated.!

2. There never was a segmented "significant groups", because all the groups mostly lived in mixed villages, therefore, there could not be "segmented autonomy" given to any group in 1960.

3. There never was a proportianal representation and allocation of positions, because more were given to the TC's at 30%, when they only represented 18% of the population, therefore once again, "consociationalism" failed in it's purpose.

4. Minority had a veto power on all issues.

It is time to bring True Democracy to Cyprus once and for all as it is practiced all over Europe and the west in general and stop playing games with failed experiments such as "consociationalism".!

First of all, Kikapu; consociationalism has nothing to do with Enosis, Taksim or other nonsense you suggested. Consociationalism is a necessity for every deeply divided, multi-etnic, multi-national, multi religious country...


1- Executive power is dhared by significant ethnic/national/religious groups because other groups much smaller in population size line up with either of the significant groups not because as u illogically and ill mindedly suggested they r insagnificant.

2- Segmental autonomy in case of Cyprus pre-1974 means that decision making authority is delegated to separate segments as much as possible... it doesn't have to be on territorial basis... Communal Chambers of 2 significant national groups of Cyprus was the product of segmental autonomy...

for the details please check the below link, page 29.

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=at7 ... 22&f=false

3- 30% quota was allocated to TCs for proportional representation because when TCs began to struggle against the GC dominance at beginning of the British rule their population ratio was nearly 1/3 of the total population of Cyprus. During the British rule TCs were represented in the legislative assembly with the same quota; 1/3.... Most probably TC leadership hope and wished the return of TCs who fled or emigrated to other countries for various reasons... However, after 1960 there had never been such a peacefull environment that would encourage emigrated TCs to return...

Moreover, during the talks between the years 1968-1971; TC leadership accepted the reduction of TC quota to then TC population ratio but this issue was not the only problem of GC leadership... they would continue to struggle until they transform the RoC based on consociational democracy into a majoritarian regime then go to a referandum and annex Cyprus with Greece... after the fall of Junta of course because Enosis with Greece under the Junta was neither in the interest of Makarios nor the GC left who constituted 1/3 of GC population.

4- What's wrong with a legitimate veto based on legitimate Cyprus constitution and laws? Why don't u consider this veto right as a tool to protect the 2 significant national groups of Cyprus from each others tyranny and as a mechanism that would urge them to consociate, cooperate, negotiate to find out a common ground on issues that r vital to them?

Sorry Kikapu but u have a very ill minded personality... God save Cypriots from the persons like u...

Hold on for a minute Insan. How on earth are you going to APPLY a consciational type of democracy when the very element of consociation is missing? Your model is perfectly fine when there is good will. When there is no good will and when one of the two sides is actually looking how to pave a way for a legitimate taksim, neither your proposoal for a consiciational democracy nor Kikapu's solution plan have any chance to be accepted and PUT in practice. The same goes for a BBF solution of course.

I personally told you that I found merits in your proposal, but yet you seem so itchy that you shoot at EVERYBODY, what's wrong with you man?

And I dare say the system of governing for me is not very important. The most important are the details of the solution ITSELF on the matter of properties, settlers, security, human rights etc etc......

[Viewpoint]

Which Cypriots GCs or TCs?