Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Consociationalism is a form of democracy

I must ask you the same question that I asked Piratis before: Are you proposing this as a solution for today or for what the solution should have been in the 50s?

both.

OK I had a quick look on that, and it seems to be a good idea.
However what makes you think your leadership and Ankara behind them will ever accept something like that?? I mean it seems to be offering them much less than a BBF. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Pyrpolizer]

Not only such thing happened in none of those countries, but what you demand for your 18% minority is far more than any community of an equivalent size would get in any other country.

We would be jumping up and down hitting the roof if Insan's conc...whatever democracy were the solution...

[Piratis]

insan, in which of those examples you mentioned the population was divided by means of ethnic cleansing in order to create separate ethnic based states?

What u call as "ethnic cleansing" is the consequence of never ending bloody Cyprus conflict... since 1974, at least there's no more bloodshed in Cyprus... maybe in the future we might again become ethnically mixed in Cyprus...

It is ETHNIC CLEANSING and not "ethnic cleansing". If you believe that this is the way to solve a conflict, then how about the TCs, who are much less than the GC refugees, go back to Turkey so all conflicts and problems of Cyprus will be solved once and for all?

[EPSILON]

TRNC is reality, making excuses or closing your eyes will not make it go away... has to deal with it. CASE CLOSED

CASE OPEN:
Could someone define this reality and whatever goes with it?
VP, you perhaps?

[/quote]

Basis they have a proper/legal/recognized state. For what the hell are still negotiating? they have the military power-the have their Sultan-Ertogan.What to hell want from us.-May be is time to tell them to take their "official state" and go to hell? Their destiny is already known-why we spend all this time and money just to negotiate with them? They are just invators and thieves-they are just a 4th World situation. Why we continue to give a sht about them?

[insan]

Consociationalism is a form of democracy

I must ask you the same question that I asked Piratis before: Are you proposing this as a solution for today or for what the solution should have been in the 50s?

both.

OK I had a quick look on that, and it seems to be a good idea.
However what makes you think your leadership and Ankara behind them will ever accept something like that?? I mean it seems to be offering them much less than a BBF. Correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, RoC was based on a consociational democracy that "my" leadership and Ankara accepted it in 1960 but your leadership and some political circles in Greece wished a majoritarian regime instead of the consociational one... therefore Makarios as a representative of ur leadership and those political circles from Greece; propsed his infamous "13 amendments" in order to get rid of the consociational elements of 60s constitution... they wanted a majoritarian regime for some purposes that are very important but i don't want to get into the details of it now...

Annan Plan was based on consociationalism too and as u know accepted by majority of TCs, then the TC leadership and Ankara...

Ps: For a very long time I believed that "my" leadership used a "hard veto" to reject the "13 amendments proposal"(actually it deseved a veto but not a "hard" one) and i accused them not using a "soft veto" to suspend it until negotiated and scientifically proved incorrect... however a few years ago I've read from a very reliable source that "my" leadership used a "soft veto" to reject/suspend enaction of "13 amendments"... if i can find that article, i will post it again...

To read more about consociationalism and "hard veto", "soft veto" mechanisms, please follow the link below...

http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/may05/ar2.pdf

Why "my" leadership doesn't accept a solution plan that would secure equally the vital interests of primarily two major communities of Cyprus and all other relevant parties including her's?

[Pyrpolizer]

Basis they have a proper/legal/recognized state. For what the hell are still negotiating? they have the military power-the have their Sultan-Ertogan.What to hell want from us.-May be is time to tell them to take their "official state" and go to hell? Their destiny is already known-why we spend all this time and money just to negotiate with them? They are just invators and thieves-they are just a 4th World situation. Why we continue to give a sht about them?

Calm down reh Epsilon we are just discussing here.
Furthermore there is no homogeneous "THEY". The "THEY" consists of many groups and in that "THEY" there are perfectly honest, totally innocent, people with pride and honor. Unfortunately at the moment the crooks prevail in that "THEY"... that's all.

"Things are a changing"

[Pyrpolizer]

Consociationalism is a form of democracy

I must ask you the same question that I asked Piratis before: Are you proposing this as a solution for today or for what the solution should have been in the 50s?

both.

OK I had a quick look on that, and it seems to be a good idea.
However what makes you think your leadership and Ankara behind them will ever accept something like that?? I mean it seems to be offering them much less than a BBF. Correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, RoC was based on a consociational democracy that "my" leadership and Ankara accepted it in 1960 but your leadership and some political circles in Greece wished a majoritarian regime instead of the consociational one... therefore Makarios as a representative of ur leadership and those political circles from Greece; propsed his infamous "13 amendments" in order to get rid of the consociational elements of 60s constitution... they wanted a majoritarian regime for some purposes that are very important but i don't want to get into the details of it now...

Annan Plan was based on consociationalism too and as u know accepted by majority of TCs, then the TC leadership and Ankara...

Ps: For a very long time I believed that "my" leadership used a "hard veto" to reject the "13 amendments proposal"(actually it deseved a veto but not a "hard" one) and i accused them not using a "soft veto" to suspend it until negotiated and scientifically proved incorrect... however a few years ago I've read from a very reliable source that "my" leadership used a "soft veto" to reject/suspend enaction of "13 amendments"... if i can find that article, i will post it again...

To read more about consociationalism and "hard veto", "soft veto" mechanisms, please follow the link below...

http://www.adalah.org/newsletter/eng/may05/ar2.pdf

Why "my" leadership doesn't accept a solution plan that would secure equally the vital interests of primarily two major communities of Cyprus and all other relevant parties including her's?

I am sorry, I am not interested in reading more theories, they cause me headache.
I don't know if the Anan plan was based on this kind of democracy, my number one reason that I rejected it was the property issue. I had other reasons too but the type of ruling system was not very signifigant.

[Pyrpolizer]

To make myself more clear whatever type of democracy or ruling system comprises ANY solution, be it BBF or Consociationalism or Bumbo jumpo, it must satisfy the property issue, settlers problem, security, independence, functioning of the state human rights, EU principles etc

[denizaksulu]

To make myself more clear whatever type of democracy or ruling system comprises ANY solution, be it BBF or Consociationalism or Bumbo jumpo, it must satisfy the property issue, settlers problem, security, independence, functioning of the state human rights, EU principles etc

An unequivocal yes.

I imagine that to be Insans objective too.............I hope!!

[Kikapu]

Insan, we had a lengthy discussion on "your" Consociational Democracy couple of years ago which was very clear that it had already failed in Cyprus before. Consociational Democracy cannot function when one party wanted Enosis and the other wanted Taksim. Enosis dream has ended for the GCs but Taksim dream is an on going for the TCs, therefore, Consociational Democracy cannot work in Cyprus, not at least until TCs Taksim dream has also ended, and even then, I doubt it will ever work in Cyprus.


Here are few excerpts from that discussion on "your" Consociational Democracy.

So you are happy that Cyprus has not seen peace since it was invaded by the Turks?

And then "Turk_Green_Eyes" wonders why the native people of Cyprus hate the invading Turks. You are a live example of the why.

I'm not happy with what happened to Cyprus. And it's not my point being happy or not with what happened to Cyprus throughout the history of Cyprus. My point is, after Ottomans ceded Cyprus to Brit GC leadership didn't accept a consociational self-governance till 1960 and afterwards 1960 GC leadership pretended as if accepted and digested a unitary state governed by consociational democracy, then after a few years showed us their real face that they still insist on making TC community a mere minority.

Here are couple of quotes about "consociationalism".!

The goals of consociationalism are governmental stability, the survival of the power-sharing arrangements, the survival of democracy and the avoidance of violence.

So lets recap for a moment on what "consociationalism" was meant to do for Cyprus using the above explanation on "consociationalism".!

1. Did it bring stabilitiy to the Government in Cyprus.?
2. Did the power sharing agreement survived.?
3. Did the original intended "Democracy" survived.?
4. Was violance avoided.?

The answer is a NO on all fronts, so once again, "consociationalism" failed Cyprus.

1. sharing executive power among representatives of all significant groups
2. segmental autonomy: each group has a great deal of internal leeway
3.proportional representation and allocation of positions
4.minority veto on vital issues (mutual veto)

There are both positives and negatives to group rights. On the positive side, it can ensure that all groups are represented and have access to political and economic power. On the negative side, it discriminates against individuals and makes the conferring of benefits be based not only individual merit or achievement but on group identity. This can be especially problematic if talent is not distributed evenly among all groups in a particular field, but access to jobs or opportunities is restricted by quota.

1. So excecutive power is only shared by "significant groups", which means the other groups are considered to be insignificant and therefore can be ignored and have their Democratic and Human Rights violated.!

2. There never was a segmented "significant groups", because all the groups mostly lived in mixed villages, therefore, there could not be "segmented autonomy" given to any group in 1960.

3. There never was a proportianal representation and allocation of positions, because more were given to the TC's at 30%, when they only represented 18% of the population, therefore once again, "consociationalism" failed in it's purpose.

4. Minority had a veto power on all issues.

It is time to bring True Democracy to Cyprus once and for all as it is practiced all over Europe and the west in general and stop playing games with failed experiments such as "consociationalism".!

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

Insan? INSAN!!!!!!!!....Kikapu and Piratis should be tried for war crimes against Insan. Thats was brutal!

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