Cyprus-Forum.com

[Expatkiwi]

Piratis,

I agree that Turkish Interests come first in regards to Turkey's presence in the TRNC, and the Turkish Cypriots are having an ever-decreasing say in their state. Still, what future would they have to look forward to under Greek Cypriot dominance? The level of hostility demonstrated in this forum alone is a good indicator that they wouldl not be welcomed as equal partners in a reunified Cyprus. As I said earlier: Rock and a Hard Place (Hatay or Crete), which is the reason why I support a totally independent and sovereign North Cyprus. You think me at best misguided (or at worst evil) for having that view, but IMHO it is simply pragmatism.

[Pyrpolizer]

However; according to GC leadership and Hellenic ultra nationalists, "the invader Ottoman remnants" would either have to accept minority status or be harrased, killed, forced to leave "The Greek island" Cyprus...

And why should the TCs, who are less than a 5th of the population, have even more than minority rights? I remind you that minority rights are rights which are over and above the individual human rights that all citizens have.

Are you saying that the majorities of all countries which have ethnic/religious/linguistic minorities (practically all), and which are not based on the so called "consociational democracy" (practically none is) are "ultra nationalists"?

At least you admit that the TC would not have accepted a normal democracy in Cyprus and that they would seek to maintain the racist divisions imposed since Ottoman rule, regardless if our aim was enosis or an independent Cyprus with a real, one person one vote, democracy.

are you talking for what the situation should have been in the 50s or today?

I am talking about how the situation was in the 50s, but the same is true for today.

I am sorry but it is not the same. Look at my reply to Insan about the 50s.

Bear in mind that every group even a minority group wants to secure as many rights as possible. It may not be totally democratic but that's how "democracy" works today.

To put it in simple terms the Tcs TODAY are in a position to claim rights that extend upto a BBF arrangement. It doesn't mean the BBF is undemocratic, but it certainly is much more than a minority status.

The differences and the clashing between groups get normalized with the passing of time. If there was no Enosis-Taksim in the 50s and the TCs have accepted a minority status to survive, they would today be a very happy and prosperus community.

Similar normalizing will happen over time if we work out a BBF agreement today.

The TCs have always been greedy claiming much more than what they deserved. The same they do now. BBF will never happen. Claiming something is one thing, getting it is another.

We have already agreed to a BBF solution and they can get it any time they want.

How do you come to that conclusion? As all the GC politicians keep saying, it depends on the type of BBF.

True but THAT WILL STILL BE BBF. It will not be a Unitary state.

[Pyrpolizer]

Piratis,

I agree that Turkish Interests come first in regards to Turkey's presence in the TRNC, and the Turkish Cypriots are having an ever-decreasing say in their state. Still, what future would they have to look forward to under Greek Cypriot dominance? The level of hostility demonstrated in this forum alone is a good indicator that they wouldl not be welcomed as equal partners in a reunified Cyprus. As I said earlier: Rock and a Hard Place (Hatay or Crete), which is the reason why I support a totally independent and sovereign North Cyprus. You think me at best misguided (or at worst evil) for having that view, but IMHO it is simply pragmatism.

So who would grand it's independence? The GCs? Turkey? The UN? LOL

[Kikapu]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

[Pyrpolizer]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

How are you my old buddy?

I totally agree with you Kiks. What percentage do you think are the taksimists among the TCs today?

[Kikapu]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

How are you my old buddy?

I totally agree with you Kiks. What percentage do you think are the taksimists among the TCs today?

Doing well my friend. Hope the same for you.

I don't know what percentage of TCs in the north are still after Taksim. I'm sure it is far less than what it was back in 1974 and getting less by the day. I think the person who may have a better knowledge to answer your question without prejudice, would be our friend "Iceman", but sadly he hasn't posted for a while. I wouldn't take any figures from VP and his likes.

[bill cobbett]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

Without disrespect to Mr Friedman, who seems very learned... No discussion "On Liberty", in marking the boundaries between the power of the state and the liberties of individual citizens, is complete without a ref to John Stuart Mill's work of the same title... suspect Mr Friedman's work is based on it.

[yorgozlu]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

How are you my old buddy?

I totally agree with you Kiks. What percentage do you think are the taksimists among the TCs today?

Doing well my friend. Hope the same for you.

I don't know what percentage of TCs in the north are still after Taksim. I'm sure it is far less than what it was back in 1974 and getting less by the day. I think the person who may have a better knowledge to answer your question without prejudice, would be our friend "Iceman", but sadly he hasn't posted for a while. I wouldn't take any figures from VP and his likes.

All the while self gain is a piority within us TCs,there'll always be pretend taksimists.All the while we do not feel man enough to speak up individualy and not just at protest gatherings,nothing will change.
Put us all together in a football stadium,we'll all shout for re-unification.Ask us one by one what we're there for,the answer'll be ,'here to protest Turkey's cut backs............

glad to say I do not fit in that category and also hope not to fit into 'vp and his likes category.

[Pyrpolizer]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

How are you my old buddy?

I totally agree with you Kiks. What percentage do you think are the taksimists among the TCs today?

Doing well my friend. Hope the same for you.

I don't know what percentage of TCs in the north are still after Taksim. I'm sure it is far less than what it was back in 1974 and getting less by the day. I think the person who may have a better knowledge to answer your question without prejudice, would be our friend "Iceman", but sadly he hasn't posted for a while. I wouldn't take any figures from VP and his likes.

Have you seen this video?
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 0601bfe1a7
My estimates are that those people should represent around 40% of the real TCs.

Of course the will of the real TC is eroded by the settlers who may not opt for taksim as such but the end result is the same..

[denizaksulu]

I REPEAT: If there was no Enosis-Taksim issue....

What happened In Crete was actually a result of their own Enosis, and the population Exchange agreement with Ataturk. Exactly the same happened to the minority of Greeks living in Turkey.
In Rhodes (I think the correct term is Rhodian Turks) nothing happened to the turkish minority which in fact receives preferential treatment in government jobs up until today.

I don't think there would be any valid reason whatsoever for the Turkish minority in Cyprus to evolve any differently than the other minorities.

Pyro,

The below quote is from an article written recently by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN who writes regularly for the International Herald Tribune/New York Times. He was writing about the recent Middle East uprising and democracy for those countries in general, but he really brings it home what Democracy is in very simple words, which I agree with him, but I wonder how many of those TCs living in the north do, as long as they are holding out for Taksim. They seem to believe that if they can just keep holding out a little bit longer, they will get their Taksim. That thought process is their Achilles Heel in ever becoming a prosperous community because Turkey will not allow the TCs to have their own state in Cyprus, not to mention the RoC also. Unless the TCs for once and for all let go of their Taksim dreams and become Cypriots in a Democratic Cyprus with a BBF, which I support due to the past circumstances, what you say above can happen, and the TCs, even as a numerical minority, can build a very prosperous life for themselves if they first let go off their Taksim dreams and embrace the three simple steps as written below in a Democracy.

Democracy requires 3 things: citizens — that is, people who see themselves as part of an undifferentiated national community where anyone can be ruler or ruled. It requires self-determination — that is, voting. And it requires what Michael Mandelbaum, author of “Democracy’s Good Name,” calls “liberty.”

“While voting determines who governs,” he explained, “liberty determines what governments can and cannot do. Liberty encompasses all the rules and limits that govern politics, justice, economics and religion.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opini ... las&st=cse

How are you my old buddy?

I totally agree with you Kiks. What percentage do you think are the taksimists among the TCs today?

Doing well my friend. Hope the same for you.

I don't know what percentage of TCs in the north are still after Taksim. I'm sure it is far less than what it was back in 1974 and getting less by the day. I think the person who may have a better knowledge to answer your question without prejudice, would be our friend "Iceman", but sadly he hasn't posted for a while. I wouldn't take any figures from VP and his likes.

All the while self gain is a piority within us TCs,there'll always be pretend taksimists.All the while we do not feel man enough to speak up individualy and not just at protest gatherings,nothing will change.
Put us all together in a football stadium,we'll all shout for re-unification.Ask us one by one what we're there for,the answer'll be ,'here to protest Turkey's cut backs............

glad to say I do not fit in that category and also hope not to fit into 'vp and his likes category.

'We are not alone'. Now who said that?