Cyprus-Forum.com

[yorgozlu]

a)Name me one new nation that has not undergone troubles at the beginning
b)You are not listening. It was not a potato-patato situation. You are saying you ARE a minority
c)I am not lying-you haven't answered my question if any of the a-f is not true.
d)you are saying you are NOT a minority...

I understand you have a cause to serve VP. Pitty really for the rest of TCs

You are not being very clear thats why you may not be getting very clear answers.

Look we do not trust GCs and thats why we need BBF with political equality so as to allow us time to see experience that we can trust you and that it is beneficial for everyone. We will not close our eyes and take the leap of faith you ask.

I simply answered for what you asked.
If on top of those things that I mentioned I was offered a BBF like you were indeed offered then i would be rolling on the floor and i would strike a deal within days.

Now you tell me why there has not been an agreement so far.

You trust the Turks more than we trust you.

You can take the horse to water,but you can't make it drink it!

[Expatkiwi]

As a lot of you know: I support the TRNC being a sovereign country, but the TRNC's independence has already been badly undermined by (a) the overt Turkish military presence , and (b) Ankara's excessive influence in TRNC politics. In essence (and given that the fact that Turkey being the TRNC's only conduit to the outside world makes it inevitable, I suppose), the TRNC is being treated by Turkey as a province, and not a sovereign nation. The Turkish Ambassador may as well be called the Administrator-General, given the political, economic, and military leverage he can bring to bear. IMHO, The TRNC really needs to start asserting it's independence to Turkey, as well as to the other countries on this planet. Until Turkey acts as an ally rather than an occupier (no matter how benevolent), with a negotiated Status of Forces agreement regulating the military presence (like what the USA has with South Korea), rather than being 'regulated' by the whims of the Ankara military establishment, and starts treating the Lefkosa government as an equal, then they might as well resign themselves to being another Hatay.

[Piratis]

Expatkiwi, there is no separate state in the north part of Cyprus. What exists there is an illegal Turkish occupation of 1/3rd of the Republic of Cyprus. You can't have a state which is independent from the native people of the territory that the state is declared on. Neither Turkey nor TCs have any right to rule over territory ethnically cleansed from the vast majority of its population.

So why would Turkey go in the trouble to illegally occupy 1/3rd of Cyprus, something which results in several problems for her (particularly after we joined the EU) and then let the TCs rule over this territory?

Or maybe you believed the lame excuses of Turkey that she invaded Cyprus, indiscriminately ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands of innocent people, in order to protect the TCs? Only if you are super-naive you would believe these lame excuses. The TCs for Turkey are just a lame excuse to occupy the north part of our country, and absolutely nothing more.

[Expatkiwi]

Piratis,

It's how I feel. The TC's are between the proverbial rock and a hard place: Overbearing Turkey on one side and an implacably hostile Greek Cypriot community on the other. In that position, what would you do?

[supporttheunderdog]

Turkey made it plain that for its own geo-political reasons, in the face of Enosis and a historical emnity with Greece over rocks in the Aegean, it would always wish to secure its southern coast, whether or not there were any Turkish speaking Cypriots.

(an informative post recently suggested that the TSC were rather more likely to be the descendants of pre 1571 Cypriots, rather than descndants of the 30000 Anatolian imports from 1571 )

As it is until the 1955 struggle, which on the part of some was not for independance but IMHO to hand Cyprus on to another foreign ruler, Greece, the two groups lived very well together, but it was the dream of Enosis (which became Cyprus ' nightmare) and the couter demand for Takism that split them.

[Piratis]

Piratis,

It's how I feel. The TC's are between the proverbial rock and a hard place: Overbearing Turkey on one side and an implacably hostile Greek Cypriot community on the other. In that position, what would you do?

The hostility was initiated by the TCs in the 50s, and nothing has changed since then.

If instead of siding with Turkey with the expectation of getting unfair privileges and gains on our expense, they accepted to be like every other ethnic/religious/linguistic minority (in Cyprus and any other democratic country), then there wouldn't be any kind of hostility.

What the TCs should do is to abandon their quest for racist and undemocratic arrangements and realize that (1) they have no power to impose an unfair solution that will benefit them on our expense, and (2) that there are limits to even what Turkey can achieve, and that anything that Turkey can achieve (e.g. maintain the illegal occupation with an unrecognized pseudo state) will be for her own benefit, and not for the benefit of the TCs.

What is right and fair, that is: TCs being equal Cypriot and EU citizens with certain minority rights (over and above their individual rights), is also the best TCs can achieve for themselves, and it is also best for GCs. If this doesn't happen, then we might continue not to have access to the north part of our country, but the cost for TCs will be even greater. The only ones who benefit from this is the Turkish army. The Turkish people will also lose, since the stance of their leadership in Cyprus (and not only) will have a significant negative impact on their standards of living.

[Piratis]

As it is until the 1955 struggle, which on the part of some was not for independance but IMHO to hand Cyprus on to another foreign ruler, Greece, the two groups lived very well together, but it was the dream of Enosis (which became Cyprus ' nightmare) and the couter demand for Takism that split them.

1955? What about this then:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

The fact is that the Muslim/Turkish population in Cyprus has always been separate. During Ottoman rule the population was divided into Christians (GCs) and Muslims (TCs) with the Christians been given far less rights.

What Turkey did was simply to use the Turkish minority on the island as an excuse to yet again deny to the Cypriot people their freedom and self-determination. There was absolutely nothing new in the criminal actions of the Turks against Cyprus.

[insan]

Turkey made it plain that for its own geo-political reasons, in the face of Enosis and a historical emnity with Greece over rocks in the Aegean, it would always wish to secure its southern coast, whether or not there were any Turkish speaking Cypriots.

(an informative post recently suggested that the TSC were rather more likely to be the descendants of pre 1571 Cypriots, rather than descndants of the 30000 Anatolian imports from 1571 )

As it is until the 1955 struggle, which on the part of some was not for independance but IMHO to hand Cyprus on to another foreign ruler, Greece, the two groups lived very well together, but it was the dream of Enosis (which became Cyprus ' nightmare) and the couter demand for Takism that split them.

TCs are descendants of both the pre 1571 Cypriots and those 30.000 Anatolian settlers. As a matter of a fact; during the conquest of Cyprus many thousands of GC males died... with whom the GC widows and adult females "got married" do u think? Of course the muslim Anatolians who then were allowed up to 6,7,8 even 10 and rarely 15 wives depending on their economic capability...

As for the Enosis and Taksim issues which u claim this caused the division of Cyprus; even had the GCs never demanded Enosis but only the "majority rule", there would still have been a problem between the two major communities of Cyprus. TC would ask a(infact they had asked since the begining of Britis rule) political structure based on consociational democracy to ensure primarily their rights and freedoms in Cyprus and of course taking into consideration the strategic importance of Cyprus; secondarily, the security of their Turkish or if u like say Turkic brothers living in Turkey...

However; according to GC leadership and Hellenic ultra nationalists, "the invader Ottoman remnants" would either have to accept minority status or be harrased, killed, forced to leave "The Greek island" Cyprus...

[Piratis]

However; according to GC leadership and Hellenic ultra nationalists, "the invader Ottoman remnants" would either have to accept minority status or be harrased, killed, forced to leave "The Greek island" Cyprus...

And why should the TCs, who are less than a 5th of the population, have even more than minority rights? I remind you that minority rights are rights which are over and above the individual human rights that all citizens have.

Are you saying that the majorities of all countries which have ethnic/religious/linguistic minorities (practically all), and which are not based on the so called "consociational democracy" (practically none is) are "ultra nationalists"?

At least you admit that the TC would not have accepted a normal democracy in Cyprus and that they would seek to maintain the racist divisions imposed since Ottoman rule, regardless if our aim was enosis or an independent Cyprus with a real, one person one vote, democracy.

[denizaksulu]

As it is until the 1955 struggle, which on the part of some was not for independance but IMHO to hand Cyprus on to another foreign ruler, Greece, the two groups lived very well together, but it was the dream of Enosis (which became Cyprus ' nightmare) and the couter demand for Takism that split them.

1955? What about this then:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

The fact is that the Muslim/Turkish population in Cyprus has always been separate. During Ottoman rule the population was divided into Christians (GCs) and Muslims (TCs) with the Christians been given far less rights.

What Turkey did was simply to use the Turkish minority on the island as an excuse to yet again deny to the Cypriot people their freedom and self-determination. There was absolutely nothing new in the criminal actions of the Turks against Cyprus.

Piratis; Where you quote inside a quote and refer to the execution of the bishops and others in 1821, are you categorically denying any aid to the insurgents - during the 1821 rebellion - whether financial, food or men at arms? What happened to those excuted by the Ottomans cannot be condoned by todays standards but then ALL rebellions were crushed and the ring-leaders excuted; ALL traitors met the same fate then. That was exactly the same sort of justice the colonial powers used aginst the Cypriots as well as what EOKA used against GCs and TCs.

I hope you are not blaming the then Moslem population for these terrible executions. The blame lies elsewhere me thinks.