Cyprus-Forum.com

[Robin Hood]

To the sceptics..........flight #77 The Pentagon

You say that you do not go for conspiracy theories, in fact, neither do I. I go for tangible evidence to confirm what I am told and when what I am told does not fit the evidence, then I need to know why.

The following author obviously has the same attitude to the ‘official’ structural report on the damage to the Pentagon on 9-11 and the facts, even to a layman on civil engineering, do not fit the story. He sounds as if he knows what he is talking about and it sure raises more questions than the original report answered.

'htpp://www.kolumbus.fi/sy-k/pentagon/asce_en.htm#slab’

This is not a conspiracy theory, it just asks the same questions I would ask as there seem to be pretty glaring discrepancies between what you see and what you are told!

[B25]

Robin, save your breath friend, there are the same peole that beleive Lee Harvey oswald did the JFK killing.

Another inside job!!!!

[Kikapu]

To the sceptics..........flight #77 The Pentagon

You say that you do not go for conspiracy theories, in fact, neither do I. I go for tangible evidence to confirm what I am told and when what I am told does not fit the evidence, then I need to know why.

The following author obviously has the same attitude to the ‘official’ structural report on the damage to the Pentagon on 9-11 and the facts, even to a layman on civil engineering, do not fit the story. He sounds as if he knows what he is talking about and it sure raises more questions than the original report answered.

'htpp://www.kolumbus.fi/sy-k/pentagon/asce_en.htm#slab’

This is not a conspiracy theory, it just asks the same questions I would ask as there seem to be pretty glaring discrepancies between what you see and what you are told!

As I've said previously, it is very easy for the "conspiracy theorists" to ask a lot of questions about anything and everything that they do not believe in, but will they please also answer some of their own questions so that we all know what happened rather than just them saying it was an "inside job", which can mean just about anything and everything. Please give us the specifics, like, if a plane did not struck the pentagon, then what did, and if it wasn't one of the hijacked planes, then where is that 4th hijacked plane gone to.?

[Robin Hood]

Kikapu,

Read the last sentence ....’This is not a conspiracy theory’.

If you cannot understand what that means then maybe a discussion were a comparison between the Saudi/terrorist/Al Qaida conspiracy theory put forward by the US Administration and the documented and recorded facts supplied through the US freedom of information act, the investigations published findings by The 911 Commission and The National Transport Safety Board using the information from flight data recorders, ATC, Military Controllers etc. and of course, eye witness statements (which to me are the most unreliable of all), then maybe this discussion is beyond your powers of reasoned analysis?

You asked for facts? These you will only find if you go and look for them. Forget sensational conspiracy theorists, and ‘inside jobs’, as you correctly say these could really mean anything you wanted them to. So, look at the sites which publish facts and findings through analysis by experts in their field. Even they can differ but I have always found that listening to those that know what they are talking about is a good starting point.

What I have posted thus far came from ‘Pilots for 911 Truth’ which is a site of air line/aviation industry professionals who come up with no suggestions as to what happened on that day, but do raise questions from undeniable fact, that what the US Administration have so far presented does not agree with those facts and even two official reports are at odds with one another!

I put it to you; Those that are prepared to accept verbatim that the ‘official’ story as presented is undeniably truthful but discount any possibility that there was some complicity, often say that the reason it would not be possible, is because thousands of people would have been involved and if there was a conspiracy, somebody would have let something slip. That seems a pretty reasonable statement to me!

But, these same people condemn outright anybody questioning how it was, given the above, that 10000 miles away a sick old man, living in a cave 14000ft up in the Tora Bora Mountains in Afghanistan, with no communications and a few dozen semi literate followers, managed to successfully outwit the USA’s mighty security machine(s) (far too many to list) with an annual budget running into many billions of dollars and employing tens of thousands of people. So instead, we are expected to believe that this guy managed to plan and execute such a plan but no body had a clue what was going on? Be honest does this really seem terribly credible to you?

I have already said that a definitive YES or NO answer to the poll question is not reasonable but ask the question as, ‘ Was there a degree of complicity?’; I personally would give YES a high probability in my book?

If you check the FBI website for Osama bin Ladin, you will notice that the one crime he is not wanted for by the US Authorities is the events that took place on 9-11-2001. When asked why, an FBI official is quoted as saying ‘ .........because we have no evidence to involve him (Bin Ladin) in those events’.

Does this sort of statement not make the official story of those events also a conspiracy theory?

There are people who come up with the most outlandish theories as to what happened but, if the US Government were to answer perfectly reasonable questions from those that do not believe the ’official’ story line, then there would be no conspiracy theories. Will this ever happen? If the authorities have dirty hands, then there is no way they will want any inconvenient facts to become public knowledge. The easiest way to do this is to ridicule those who question because they know the mass of the population will believe unquestioningly, the official line.

As one who apparently believes the official line, I ask you the same question you asked me:

‘......please also answer some of their (your) own questions so that we all know what happened rather than just them saying it was (NOT) an "inside job",............(and presumably there was no complicity either?)

‘Please give us the specifics, like, if a plane did not struck the pentagon, then what did, and if it wasn't one of the hijacked planes, then where is that 4th hijacked plane gone to.?

For the first part, look at the video I posted and reason it out from the photos and report analysis. As for the second part........? Until we get an answer to the first part then what you then ask can only be an hypothesis. That is why the people need some answers based on tangible, honest and reliable information and those that do not provide it, tell lies or hide the facts should go on trial.....who ever they are!

[Cap]

Conspiracy theory No2:

Muslim terrorists hijacked airliners and flew them into the world trade center.

[Robin Hood]

Muslim terrorists hijacked airliners and flew them into the world trade center.

Cap,

Yup ..... that about sums it up, that is more or less what we saw in the one video available of the first impact. I am sure that if you look very, very closely you can see Atta’s hand chucking his passport out of the aircraft window a split second before impact!!!!

Tell me are you a Cypriot Lawyer by profession, because you don’t seem to need any convincing evidence that it was as simple and a straight forward as that. I thought that according to the believers, it took thousands of people to organise such a spectacular event?

But, there you are, some are more easily convinced than others. That is why I am an atheist, I tend to need a bit of proof before I swallow the bait hook-line-and-sinker.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

Read the last sentence ....’This is not a conspiracy theory’.

If you cannot understand what that means then maybe a discussion were a comparison between the Saudi/terrorist/Al Qaida conspiracy theory put forward by the US Administration and the documented and recorded facts supplied through the US freedom of information act, the investigations published findings by The 911 Commission and The National Transport Safety Board using the information from flight data recorders, ATC, Military Controllers etc. and of course, eye witness statements (which to me are the most unreliable of all), then maybe this discussion is beyond your powers of reasoned analysis?

You asked for facts? These you will only find if you go and look for them. Forget sensational conspiracy theorists, and ‘inside jobs’, as you correctly say these could really mean anything you wanted them to. So, look at the sites which publish facts and findings through analysis by experts in their field. Even they can differ but I have always found that listening to those that know what they are talking about is a good starting point.

What I have posted thus far came from ‘Pilots for 911 Truth’ which is a site of air line/aviation industry professionals who come up with no suggestions as to what happened on that day, but do raise questions from undeniable fact, that what the US Administration have so far presented does not agree with those facts and even two official reports are at odds with one another!

I put it to you; Those that are prepared to accept verbatim that the ‘official’ story as presented is undeniably truthful but discount any possibility that there was some complicity, often say that the reason it would not be possible, is because thousands of people would have been involved and if there was a conspiracy, somebody would have let something slip. That seems a pretty reasonable statement to me!

But, these same people condemn outright anybody questioning how it was, given the above, that 10000 miles away a sick old man, living in a cave 14000ft up in the Tora Bora Mountains in Afghanistan, with no communications and a few dozen semi literate followers, managed to successfully outwit the USA’s mighty security machine(s) (far too many to list) with an annual budget running into many billions of dollars and employing tens of thousands of people. So instead, we are expected to believe that this guy managed to plan and execute such a plan but no body had a clue what was going on? Be honest does this really seem terribly credible to you?

I have already said that a definitive YES or NO answer to the poll question is not reasonable but ask the question as, ‘ Was there a degree of complicity?’; I personally would give YES a high probability in my book?

If you check the FBI website for Osama bin Ladin, you will notice that the one crime he is not wanted for by the US Authorities is the events that took place on 9-11-2001. When asked why, an FBI official is quoted as saying ‘ .........because we have no evidence to involve him (Bin Ladin) in those events’.

Does this sort of statement not make the official story of those events also a conspiracy theory?

There are people who come up with the most outlandish theories as to what happened but, if the US Government were to answer perfectly reasonable questions from those that do not believe the ’official’ story line, then there would be no conspiracy theories. Will this ever happen? If the authorities have dirty hands, then there is no way they will want any inconvenient facts to become public knowledge. The easiest way to do this is to ridicule those who question because they know the mass of the population will believe unquestioningly, the official line.

As one who apparently believes the official line, I ask you the same question you asked me:

‘......please also answer some of their (your) own questions so that we all know what happened rather than just them saying it was (NOT) an "inside job",............(and presumably there was no complicity either?)

‘Please give us the specifics, like, if a plane did not struck the pentagon, then what did, and if it wasn't one of the hijacked planes, then where is that 4th hijacked plane gone to.?

For the first part, look at the video I posted and reason it out from the photos and report analysis. As for the second part........? Until we get an answer to the first part then what you then ask can only be an hypothesis. That is why the people need some answers based on tangible, honest and reliable information and those that do not provide it, tell lies or hide the facts should go on trial.....who ever they are!

Just because the government does not release all classified information in what ever it is that they do not want the public or the world to know for what ever reason, it does not necessarily mean they did something wrong. Same with the 9/11 event. There are a lot of information gathered that day and beyond, that the government is not willing to share them with the general public. Listen, I'm one of the most suspicious people about anything, so I don't buy into anything just because my government has told me or something I read in a book or watched it on TV. I formulate my own reasons to trust or not to trust something. No government in the free world can hide all the evidence on something as big as 9/11 if it was an "inside job". We saw the visual evidence live for the most part and the rest, after the fact. This is not something that happened in a remote place in the vast cornfields of Iowa. It mostly happened downtown New York city and Washington DC.

The whole operation by the terrorists wasn't as complicated as you make them out to be. It was the simplicity of the whole operation that went undetected for the most part, except possibly airliners might be hijacked, which I personally believe the government had knowledge of, but what the intentions of the hijackers were, was a mystery to the government. If you do not believe that the whole 9/11 was a very simple plan executed with maximum results with some luck, then you to stage the 9/11 with an "inside job" theories, then it would have required thousands of people involved before the 9/11 and even more to cover everything after the 9/11.

As for your attempt to reverse my questions is nothing but a cheap stunt which will not work with me, but instead would further prove that the "inside job" theorists have no answers but just endless questions as to why this and why that. If there is no missing 4th plane, then the government must have also managed to have thousands of workers at United and American Airlines to go along with "their lie", that in fact that one of their planes was not involved against the Pentagon, along with fictitious pilots and flight attendants who died on that flight or any other plane involved in 9/11 for that matter.

Bottom line is, if the government is keeping certain information classified for what ever reason on events of 9/11, it does not mean that the whole 9/11 event was an "inside job". I want answers from the "inside job" theorists with proof as to what happened that day and enough with all the questions. The whole thing happened in broad day light and on camera for the most part which killed thousands, effected millions of people and cost Billions in direct cost and further Billions in indirect cost to the USA. No government in the free world would cause such a destruction in a "inside job" to start a war with anyone. The costs are way too high, much higher than any possible benefits in return. For a change, lets hear some answers by the "inside job" theorists if they want to remain credible with their questions and theories, that's all.

[supporttheunderdog]

1) Can anybody tell me how one projects a complex moving holographic image into thin air? As far as I am aware Currently any- rather every - projection system needs a medium of some sort to project against, which in the case of 9/11 would probably have to be effectively the size of an airliner, moving at the speed of an airliner......

2) hundreds of hi-jackings have taken place in the past, many of them performed by single inviduals: the big part of this scheme was getting enough people in place and for long enough to learn to fly sufficiently well to hit a building - no need to learn the tricky bits of taking-off and landing.

After that pick 4 or 5 flights which will be in the right area at about the same time.......with timetables known up to six months in advance, and a little bit of study, including a few flights, one can soon pick five suitable flights into or out of a suitable local airport for Washington and/or New York targets.

The US Airforce was unlikely to be able to do too much - they are focused more on external threats rather than tracking the many hundreds of planes likely to be in the air inside the US, in particular on the New York to Washington regions, which are not normally seen as a threat, and in any event once they had realised the situation they would probably have had only a very few minutes to find and destroy the planes - assuming that anyone would have given any pilot an instruction to fire on a laden passenger plane or the pilot would have obeyed it.

[Robin Hood]

Kikapu,

In general I agree with you and I say once again that ‘complicity’ is a much greater possibility than some form of ‘inside job’ so I do not subscribe to an ‘inside job’ scenario.

It was a simple plan but no matter how simple it still needed an awful lot of planning and suspicions should have been raised, after all this is what the US and other countries spend billions on every year, collecting and analysing fragmented information. That is the basic purpose of the British Bases in Cyprus, simply the collection of information. However, It would be unrealistic to believe that even had they had much of the information required, they would have been able to predict events.

The scenario was not a mystery to the US Government because they had run through drills reflecting exactly these events, hijacked airliners being used as missiles to bring down buildings, and the World Trade Centre buildings were the scenario they had previously used.

I apologise if you thought my reversal of your comment was a cheap stunt, that was not the intent. But it often seems that even if the non-believers do put forward information which they feel needs clarification, the authorities refuse to provide answers.

One very simple example; if the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757, where are the engines? No matter how severe the crash the engines, being such a large mass, always survive. They may not look like engines anymore but, what was there before impact was still there after impact! There are so many things that remain unanswered and I do not believe the display and professional analysis of engines could possibly be harmful to national interests but would confirm the official description of the event.

If you have looked at that video, it simply asks obvious questions. There are several different scenarios as to the angle that the aircraft struck the building, but every angle has an aspect that says that this answers one question, but the other evidence refutes it. If you go on to study the two flight simulator representations of the flight path produced by the NTSB and the 911 Commission, even though they supposedly used the same factual information, they came up with different answers. In both cases there are glaring errors. I don’t think that you can accuse me of trying to suggest what did happen, merely that on the evidence that is available the ‘official’ story leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

What you are asking for ‘....proof that it was all an inside job’ from people who have been given no access to much of the information and do not have the financial resources to embark on thousands of hours of assimilation of facts on their own bat, is asking a bit much. All they can do is look at the official information and say ‘....hang on a minute, this doesn’t add up?’ Simple explanations like where the hell are the two engines of flight AA#77, in fact just one would do?

‘supporttheunderdog’,

1) I don’t believe this sort of rubbish, no more than the attacks were carried out by little green men!

2) This aspect of only bothering about the flying bit of the course and not the tricky bits like take-off’s and landings, did raise the suspicions of those at the flight schools, plus the fact that they were all Arabs and spoke poor English . Their suspicions were forwarded to the FBI who did absolutely nothing about it. These conspiracy theory activists get every where and ask a whole load of silly questions.......... good job nobody ever takes any notice of the suspicions they raise!!!

The third paragraph makes perfectly logical sense and is very straight forward to understand.

Your final paragraph is full of errors and obvious misunderstandings of the system. Washington is a very restricted air space. Any aircraft entering the area without a specific clearance would be subject to interception within minutes, that’s what NORAD is for. NORAD sat on the hijacking scenarios going on around them, for twenty minutes before they took action. Nobody it seems was available to make the decisions............ and when they eventually got their act together, they sent the two scrambled aircraft out to sea.

They also scrambled aircraft from an airfield 180 miles to the north, in spite of having (I believe) two military ‘on stand by’ fields within 12m, although both had been ‘stood down’. However, there seems to have been a lot of bewilderment in NORAD as there were exercises going on at the same time, simulating hijacked aircraft attacking targets in New York and Washington. So I suppose it would come as no surprise that there was a great deal of confusion. Listen to the ATC/NORAD transcripts....... the common question asked was ‘Is this for real or a drill?’ and not just once but virtually every bit of information being given was questioned as to it’s authenticity.

Your last point is very valid. If the military were already questioning what they were being told, it would have been a very brave man who gave the instruction for a pilot to destroy a loaded civilian aircraft in such a confused situation. Even the pilot would have been very confused and would no doubt have asked for clarification before taking action.



Thank you both for joining in a decent discussion. Maybe CF does not have to be boring just because we do not hurl insults at one another?

[CBBB]

I think it is terrible that the 4 hi-jacked planes were diverted from their prime objrctive of sprayimg chem-trails over Cyprus.