Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tony-4497]

B25, Antifon

I am Cypriot and live here too. My land is near Famagusta and I was supposed to get it all back under Annan, but I still was against that. My primary interest is in long term security, as I have 3 small kids.

The ideal scenario would have been for TCs to live with us peacefully under a single state, like the Armenians, Maronites etc. HOWEVER, this is simply no longer possible. It has not been possible since Makarios was stupid enough to sign the 1960 agreements, some of us were stupid enough to stage a coup and all of our leaders were stupid enough to accept BBF with political equality as the only solution going forward.

What I am trying to find is a solution which is a hell of a lot better than the solution our leaders are currently discussing i.e. another version of Annan AND which can be acceptable to TCs and Turkey. What I am suggesting gives a reasonable proportion of land to TCs (not so much more than what they own anyway) while it increases substantially the land that our current state controls and safeguards our security and survival on this enlarged land.

What is the alternative you are suggesting? And don't start with FARTS like above. Tell me in PRACTICAL terms what will ACTUALLY happen if your proposals are followed.

1. Is anyone going to stop Turkey from continuing to bring in tens of thousands of settlers every year in the foreseeable future?

2. If we try to find a solution in 10-15 years (if and when when Turkey might be close to joining the EU), is there any court, UN committee or arbitrator that will decide to deport the Turkish settlers who will have been in Cyprus for decades?

3. What kind of solution will you actually be able to negotiate (in REALITY, not FARTS again) if you have say 1 or 1.5 million Turks in the north?

I am not saying we should do ANY deal now, just to find a solution.. The long-term struggle/ status quo, especially if we can find ways to apply pressure to block the flow of settlers NOW, is a MUCH better option than Annan-type solutions.

BUT, we need to have in mind what our ideal outcome is at the end of this road..i.e.

1. what will realistically be the outcome of this long term struggle IF we are successful? Please explain what this looks like in your heads.

2. how does this compare to what I propose? Is it better, worse or about the same?

[antifon]

B25, Antifon

I am Cypriot and live here too. My land is near Famagusta and I was supposed to get it all back under Annan, but I still was against that. My primary interest is in long term security, as I have 3 small kids.

The ideal scenario would have been for TCs to live with us peacefully under a single state, like the Armenians, Maronites etc. HOWEVER, this is simply no longer possible. It has not been possible since Makarios was stupid enough to sign the 1960 agreements, some of us were stupid enough to stage a coup and all of our leaders were stupid enough to accept BBF with political equality as the only solution going forward.

What I am trying to find is a solution which is a hell of a lot better than the solution our leaders are currently discussing i.e. another version of Annan AND which can be acceptable to TCs and Turkey. What I am suggesting gives a reasonable proportion of land to TCs (not so much more than what they own anyway) while it increases substantially the land that our current state controls and safeguards our security and survival on this enlarged land.

What is the alternative you are suggesting? And don't start with FARTS like above. Tell me in PRACTICAL terms what will ACTUALLY happen if your proposals are followed.

1. Is anyone going to stop Turkey from continuing to bring in tens of thousands of settlers every year in the foreseeable future?

2. If we try to find a solution in 10-15 years (if and when when Turkey might be close to joining the EU), is there any court, UN committee or arbitrator that will decide to deport the Turkish settlers who will have been in Cyprus for decades?

3. What kind of solution will you actually be able to negotiate (in REALITY, not FARTS again) if you have say 1 or 1.5 million Turks in the north?

I am not saying we should do ANY deal now, just to find a solution.. The long-term struggle/ status quo, especially if we can find ways to apply pressure to block the flow of settlers NOW, is a MUCH better option than Annan-type solutions.

BUT, we need to have in mind what our ideal outcome is at the end of this road..i.e.

1. what will realistically be the outcome of this long term struggle IF we are successful? Please explain what this looks like in your heads.

2. how does this compare to what I propose? Is it better, worse or about the same?

I have 3 small kids.

Να τα χαίρεσαι!

peacefully under a single state ... this is simply no longer possible.

Erroneous assumption.

Makarios was stupid enough to sign the 1960 agreements

Did he have a choice? Do you any idea what was Turkey capable of back then?

I am trying to find is a solution which is a hell of a lot better

This is the solution, updated and EU adjusted:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

There was once a visionary man who outlined his solution while trying to balance an impossible situation of an empire's bruised ego, a fascist's designs, the crippled aspirations of a people and the sacrifice of an ethnic minority in the arena of international power politics. His ideas, updated and EU adjusted, are the only sensible solution for Cyprus' Turkeyish problem and her tCypriot challenge.

I just wish tCypriot unionists had the vision, the wisdom and the guts to respond to Makarios' letter. The solution will be agreed and the problems will be over so fast that Turkey will be left wondering "What the hell just happened?"
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/03/wha ... pened.html

FARTS

Make your case again without offending yourself and your kids and I will revert later in the day.

[Bananiot]

Well Tony, at least you do not blame everybody else bar ourselves. If you want to apportion blame though, you need to go beyond 1959, when we had no alternative but sign the London - Zurich agreements as a result of an ill-concieved and failed armed struggle against Britain.

In poitics you always pay the bill when you make a mistake and we made lots of mistakes and on top, we are just little minnows, a grain of sand in a desert, so to speak.

Little and insignificant countries do not attempt to play big politics in the international arena, let alone try to blackmail the big players. We behaved in a stupid and arrogant way and perhaps what we got isn't that bad after all. It could have been much worse.

I agree with you that a salvage operation to save what can be saved is all we can do at the moment. As time goes by things only get worse and in 10-15 years from now no one will remember the Turkish invasion. I disagree with you on the Annan Plan, for it could have been much better for a start, had Papadopoulos negotiated it with a view of using it as the basis for solution. Still, it had positive aspects, like the removal of the Turkish army and the vast majority of the settlers. The return of much land, towns and villages. What do we have now? And, as the conditions on the ground change continuously, wouldn't you expect the next plan to be worse than the Annan Plan and all the others we rejected previously?

[Tony-4497]

Thanks, Antifon

"peacefully under a single state ... this is simply no longer possible. "

Erroneous assumption.
---------------
I think the above sums up our disagreement. Your whole theory revolves around the assumption that Turkey will be forced to accept a unitary state - and, on top of this, Makarios's 13 points (EU adjusted) including the removal of the Turkish veto right.

Funny how noone thought of this all these years.. perhaps you can give Christofias or Downer a call.. problem solved!

As you probably do know, the only chance Ankara will agree to this is following a war that we win. Why don't you tell me what you think will happen in the perhaps more likely scenario, under which Ankara does not, during the next 20 years, agree to your plan, and noone forces it to agree?

[humanist]

GC's will never agree to recognition of ' trnc'. Turkey its not pushing for that genuinely because it uses TC's to basically set up an army base in the middle of the Med Sea. Am surprised the international arena and the big players n the region haven't figured it out. How closer to Israel can be to Turkey really than Cyprus.

[antifon]

Thanks, Antifon

"peacefully under a single state ... this is simply no longer possible. "

Erroneous assumption.
---------------
I think the above sums up our disagreement. Your whole theory revolves around the assumption that Turkey will be forced to accept a unitary state - and, on top of this, Makarios's 13 points (EU adjusted) including the removal of the Turkish veto right.

Funny how noone thought of this all these years.. perhaps you can give Christofias or Downer a call.. problem solved!

As you probably do know, the only chance Ankara will agree to this is following a war that we win. Why don't you tell me what you think will happen in the perhaps more likely scenario, under which Ankara does not, during the next 20 years, agree to your plan, and noone forces it to agree?

All I am saying we need to think out of the box Turkey put us in all these years. There are forces at play as great as those that ended the Soviet Union. We must capitalize on them.

These are:
- Turkish Islamic "democracy model" is questioned by the west & Arabs
- Kurds of Turkey have raised the stakes, asking Cyprus-like rights in Turkey
- tCypriots' best option is whatever we decide to give them, else extinction


Read me here:
Is meddling in Turkey's affairs fair play? | 23/12/10
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/new ... -late.html

and here
A leap of faith for Cyprus | 29/1/11
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/lea ... yprus.html

and here
The crux of the matter | 4/4/11
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/04/crux-of-matter.html

and here
Checkmating fascism in Cyprus! | 13/2/11
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/02/che ... yprus.html

and here
Silent & Majority | Christofias' proposals | 24/12/10
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/sil ... ority.html