Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

We've seen several people like you. Most of them are more successful though. Try harder next time.

Judge and Jury once again Priatis? The magical 'we' again?

[mehmet]

My family in the Karpas lived in a mixed village all through the 1960s and up to 1974. That didn't stop them being caught up in tragic events, it didn't stop my grandfather's brother being dragged of a bus along with 10 others by people the 'legal' government couldn't bring to justice and being murdered. In 1974 when the Turkish army invadd what do you think my family did. Seek protection from their Greek spoeaking neighbours? They escaped to a Turkish village. And when the Turkish army come through do you think anyone from that village said go away, stop invading my country? We were allright with the Republic o Cyprus, don't waste time telling us we are better off separate?

[iskismet]

I would try and discuss this with you Piratis but you have a closed mind, and you don't properly read what is written by contributors to this forum.

I told you I saw GCs killing GCs but you will not accept it. Sampson is recorded as boasting he killed dissenting GCs - normally by a shot to the back of the head. These are facts.

I have also lived where you live now - Limassol. I have mixed with TCs and GCs. Unlike you I can be independent - I don't need to make references about your family, I am not filled with bitterness and hate. I truly feel sorry for you, that you have not been able to forgive.

I lost two uncles in the last war (not that I was born then). The British and Americans and Cypriots and others were killed in their thousands by Germany and her allies. The British lost soldiers to Greek Cypriots when fighting for enosis. Where is the bitterness from that - there isn't any, most people can forgive and move on.

None of this counts to you. You can only think of what YOU have lost.

You talk about compromise and then in the same breath talk about the privileges given to TCs - the two are mutually exclusive. They do not want gifts or favours - they want to be recognised as equals. You are not offering that either by words or actions.

I repeat to you that partition over the last 30 years has worked - why are you not able to discuss that option without getting irrational and abusive?

[MicAtCyp]

Cyprus has now had 30 years of non killing - the peace operation by Turkey has worked and you cannot deny that.

What a square logic! For your information there is peace in the cementaries too.The Turkish "peace" operation could have worked much better if they burried all GCs in the cementaries don't you think so? The Turkish "peace" war planes 1n 1974 were bombing us with rose water right?

I repeat: there have been 30 years of non-killing - why wouldn't partition be the real answer?

Because we don't want to leagalise the results of the Turkish Invasion, the stealing of 37% of our land and the 70% of Cyprus economic potential,and the turning of 200000 of our people into permnent refugeees.

[iskismet]

However you interpret it - the killing has stopped.

The TCs have indicated they would be willing to give up some of the occupied land - and as far as I can see that was probably the intention as far back as 1974.

But I have a question - you say 37% of 'our' land. If you mean GC & TC then the GC figure is obviously not 37% and would be somewhat lower.

Is any figure acceptable to the GCs?

Are 200000 people still permanent refugees?

Where do they live? Do they have homes? Do they have jobs?

I have travelled a lot in Cyprus on holiday and business - I have not seen anything like this number.

[Piratis]

I would try and discuss this with you Piratis but you have a closed mind

You are totally mindless.

I told you I saw GCs killing GCs but you will not accept it. Sampson is recorded as boasting he killed dissenting GCs - normally by a shot to the back of the head. These are facts.

I didn't say i did not accept it. What I said is that your facts show that terrorism was in all directions. Not just from GCs against TCs as say. For example communists probably suffered more than TCs before 74. Does that mean that they should have taken a part of Cyprus just for themselves?

I am not filled with bitterness and hate. I truly feel sorry for you, that you have not been able to forgive.

I am sorry, but all I see coming from you is nothing else than bitterness and hate along with the desire to take revenge on us by partitioning our country.

The British lost soldiers to Greek Cypriots when fighting for enosis. Where is the bitterness from that - there isn't any, most people can forgive and move on.

This obviously does not include you and your government.

You talk about compromise and then in the same breath talk about the privileges given to TCs - the two are mutually exclusive. They do not want gifts or favours - they want to be recognised as equals. You are not offering that either by words or actions.

No, what they want is not to be equals. Each one of them wants to have 3 times as much power as each one of us. Sorry, but this is not equality at all.

I repeat to you that partition over the last 30 years has worked - why are you not able to discuss that option without getting irrational and abusive?

Dude, you can repeat whatever you want. Because you think it works, I should think it works also?
For the UK obviously it works. If it didn't work we wouldn't be partitioned today. You didn't tell us anything new, really. But insisting that it should work for us is stupid to say the least.

[Piratis]

But I have a question - you say 37% of 'our' land. If you mean GC & TC then the GC figure is obviously not 37% and would be somewhat lower.

The Republic of Cyprus is the whole island of Cyprus. Thats 37% of the Republic of Cyprus land, and it all belongs to the Republic of Cyprus.

Private land can be owned by people (Cypriots or foreigners), who should obey the laws of the Republic and they are not allowed to do whatever they feel like with this land. This is the same in all other countries. The only difference is that in Cyprus we have an illegal occupation of part of the island and therefore the Republic can not enforce its laws in its whole territory.

[MicAtCyp]

Those who were killed by Turks in the combat were mainly the ones who made the coup and defending the coupists. They were neither defending the democratic order of their country nor the lives of Cypriots.

No i am very sorry, but this is not so. The ones who participated at the coup at the presidential palace were two squadrons of tanks and some selected commandos. Total of about 300 people. Paramilitary groups supporting the coupists were also trying to get control all over the island. So in this respect yes we had some hudreds dead and missing from the coup thats true.

However those who fought against the Turkish Invasion were 12,000 soldiers of National Guard +1000 soldiers of ELDYK + the paramilitarists Eoka b etc+ reservists.All the reservists were unarmed though and very soon abandoned the effort together with many soldiers who realised the whole thing was a setup.The ones who lost their lives are all sorts of people including civilians. Finally the Turkish Invasion left 6000 GC dead, and about 1600 missing. And that number excludes those who died or got missed from the coup period.

And if those people were not defending their country and their families during the Invasion, what were they defending, Afganistan or Korea?

This was the reality of living as a TC minority in Cyprus for my Aunt

And I think we discussed in great detail (elsewhere) that the killing of your uncle Veli in Famagusta occured one day after your TMT butchered the young son of Kyriakides from Nicosia and his 3 friends who entered the Famagusta enclave by mistake. Why do you continue presenting half the truth in bright details and the other half with generalisations like "yes there were kinnings in both sides". You din't need to mess up iskismet, he was obviously messed up before he even entered this forum.

she felt safe in her own country, after 10 years of fear.

The mother of Kyriakides after 40 years never felt safe though. The Turkish army in the north is still lined up on an attack arrangement....

[iskismet]

Where are these 200000 permanent refugees?

[erolz]

And I think we discussed in great detail (elsewhere) that the killing of your uncle Veli in Famagusta occured one day after your TMT butchered the young son of Kyriakides from Nicosia and his 3 friends who entered the Famagusta enclave by mistake. Why do you continue presenting half the truth in bright details and the other half with generalisations like "yes there were kinnings in both sides". You din't need to mess up iskismet, he was obviously messed up before he even entered this forum.

I was relating my aunts and my familys experience. I gave no half truths in fact I used a GC newspaper report relating to the event. You may as well ask them why the 'half truths' as you put it, and not me. That the killing of my uncle (or should that be butchering of my uncle?) who was an innocent and nothing to do with TMT was in revenge for earlier deaths of GC/Greeks, in no way changes the impact it had on my aunt or her children. On the fear she felt (and the 'revenge killings were designed to cause fear) after it. Her pain was no less because it was a 'revenge' killing (against someone totaly innocent of the thing being revenged).

If we are going to throw accusations of 'half truths' around - and given that you are more than ready to respond to my families tradigic past loss not with sympath or any sign of regret but instead with such accusations - then how about this idependent report form the site that many regard as the most 'impartial' site relating to cyprus (http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Patrick-chp%203.htm)

On 11 May 1964, a car, carrying three Greek army officers and a Greek-Cypriot policeman, was driven into the Turkish-Cypriot walled city of Famagusta. Turkish-Cypriot policemen signalled the car to stop as it approached an exit gate. The occupants of the car fired at the Turk-Cypriot policemen and their fire was returned. Two of the Greek officers and the Greek-Cypriot policeman were killed; the third Greek officer was wounded; a Turk-Cypriot bystander was killed in the cross-fire.

It has never been satisfactorily explained why these men entered the Turkish-Cypriot quarter. Most likely it was a reckless act of bravado during which some amateurish spying of Turk- Cypriot defences was carried out.[43]

News of this incident immediately inflamed inter-communal enmity. Government press reports portrayed the incident as an atrocity in which Turkish-Cypriot 'terrorists' riddled four lone Greeks who had strayed into the Turkish-Cypriot quarter by mistake.[44] This completely fallacious version of the incident encouraged Greek-Cypriot extremist groups to exact their own revenge. Between 11 and 13 May, probably 32 to 35 Turk-Cypriots were abducted and executed as a reprisal for the deaths of these three men. The abductions seem to have been carried out by a well-organized Greek-Cypriot gang based in Famagusta and Larnaca Districts, although it is not improbable that a few of the kidnappings may have been spontaneous and uncoordinated acts of revenge.

The UNFICYP investigations into these mass abductions were undertaken by a British officer, Major Masey, the UNFICYP liaison officer to the Turkish-Cypriot leadership. On 7 June, Major Masey and his driver were themselves abducted in the Famagusta District, and presumably murdered.[45] There may be some question as to whether Masey's murder was motivated primarily to prevent an investigation into the Famagusta abductions, or as a result of Greek-Cypriot enmity of the British troops which was quite intense at that time.[46] There is, however, no doubt that Masey's murderers were Greek-Cypriot irregulars.

Do not bother to tell me this is all lies made up to damage GC. For anything that does not support your version of the 'truth' must be lies by your definition. The facts remain 1 GC and 2 Greeks or possibly GC were killed whilst entering a TC enclave (a minority under siege by a vastly greater GC majority). The Greeks (or GC) may or may not have Greek army officers. They may or may not have been armed. They may or may not have fired first. They may or may not have stopped at the checkpoint or may or may not have attempted to drive through it. Thye may or may not have been there by intent or may or may not have been lost. Three of them undoubtedly were dead at the end of the incident (as well as a TC bystander). In repsonse and in revenge 30+ innocent and unconnected TC were killed. There is no question that my uncle was doing nothing but going to work - where he had always worked (he was not lost, did not 'stray' innocently into a GC checkpoint or purposely). He was definately not armed. He definately did not shoot at anyone. He definatley was totaly uninvolved in the deaths of the GC/Greeks.
The response to the event was a lawless killing of massivley greater number of innocent people. It was designed to send a clear message from the GC to TC - that message was if a GC/Greek dies - even if they are attempting to crash through a barricade into a TC 'safe area', then 10 times more TC will die and they will not be TC guilty of any crime - they will be inncoent TC for thus fear is greater. This is the reality for some TC as to how TC lived as a minoritiy in Cyprus in 64. So lecture me now on 'legailites' on 'human rights' on 'minority rights' on 'two wrongs dont make a right' on 'taking the law into your own hands' and other such moralising if you must. You may forget or dismiss realites such as these at your convience when doing this 'lecturing', but I do not.

Your response to my aunts story is as though you think my uncle deserved to die. As though his killing was justifed because some GC died before - despite the fact he was nothing to do with those deaths and the killers knew that. Despite the fact that these killers were operating totaly outside any law. That (any) 30+ TC deaths is just reward for 3 Greek/GC deaths.

My POINT (which you have neatly avoided as usual in your diversionary accusing tatics) was that this was one reality for TC living as a minority amongst a numericaly superior GC people. My POINT was that Piratis' continued insistance that the only GC extremists in Cyprus were the EOKA-B extremists of 67 onwards and that EOKA was merely a bunch of heros fighting to free Cyprus from British 'tyranny' is not reflected in the facts of events like these. My POINT was that some TC lived in fear and left there homes for enclaves not because of TMT telling them too or because it was a secret plan for division of Cyprus but because they DID live in fear - and had real direct reasons for that fear. My POINT was that for these TC this fear did not end till 74. The RoC did not end this fear. The UN did not end this fear. The consitution did not end this fear. My POINT was that for such people the events of 74 were necessary. They did not want partition. They wanted to live free of fear and in peace in their own land. The RoC failed to provide this - year after year.

The mother of Kyriakides after 40 years never felt safe though. The Turkish army in the north is still lined up on an attack arrangement....

It is one thing to live in fear of what might happen (Turkish troops moving over the borders after 74) but that has actualy never happened and another living with the fear of what DID happen. It is one thing to fear for your saftey if you should stray into an area that is know to be dangerous for you to be in, at a time that is known to be dangerous and in a way known to be dangerous. It is another to fear that you will be specificaly sought out by killers, wherever you are, whatever time of day it is and whatever you are doing.
If the mother of Kyriakides never felt safe (and one wonders if you have talk to her about here fears like I have with my aunt) for 40 years (ie ten years before the Turkish action) then one has to wonder what consitions could have prevailed on Cyprus that would have made her feel safe. One where TC were shot and killed but did not shoot back? Or maybe only the total removal of all TC from Cyprus would have made her feel safe?