Cyprus-Forum.com

[supporttheunderdog]

Piratis what happened in Briton about 1500 years or so ago is exactly what happened in Greece about 4000-3600 years ago and in Cyprus somewhere between 3200 and 2300 years ago, and in Turkey about 1000 years ago.

As for being Jingoistic or imperialist, I have always spoken out for an independent Cyprus: I don't even have a problem with the idea of the abolition of the SBA, and removal of British forces, except that SBA planning law is probably what has kept some parts of Cyprus within the SBA least unspoilt by massive over development.



Cyprus is not otherwise a Greek island but to 1906 was has been a Greco/Turkish speaking British controlled island:then it was a Greco/Turkish speaking Ottomans Controlled Island, before that it was a Greco-Frankish Island: before that it was Byzantine, before that it was Byzantine-Arab, before that it was Byzantine-Roman, before that it was Ptolomaic, before that it was Persian controlled, etc, and with 10000 year history that is quite distinct to that of Greece or Turkey. Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece, but they probably have ancestors who were Cypriot say 5000 years ago or more.

It is the failure of Cypriots to build their own identity that lead to the events of '63 and inexorably '74,

What you areotherwise basically saying is the Cypriots are incapable or rulling tjhemselves. What a damning indictment that is. Not a view I share.

[kurupetos]

From Diodorus Siculus:

Now for our part, since we have seen fit to make mention of the regions of Asia which lie to the north, we feel that it will not be foreign to our purpose to discuss the legendary accounts of the Hyperboreans.32 Of those who have written about the ancient myths, Hecataeus and certain others say that in the regions beyond the land of the Celts33 there lies in the ocean an island no smaller p39than Sicily. This island, the account continues, is situated in the north and is inhabited by the Hyperboreans, who are called by that name because their home is beyond the point whence the north wind (Boreas) blows; and the island is both fertile and productive of every crop, and since it has an unusually temperate climate it produces two harvests each year. 2 Moreover, the following legend is told concerning it: Leto34 was born on this island, and for that reason Apollo is honoured among them above all other gods; and the inhabitants are looked upon as priests of Apollo, after a manner, since daily they praise this god continuously in song and honour him exceedingly. And there is also on the island both a magnificent sacred precinct of Apollo and a notable temple which is adorned with many votive offerings and is spherical in shape. 3 Furthermore, a city is there which is sacred to this god, and the majority of its inhabitants are players on the cithara; and these continually play on this instrument in the temple and sing hymns of praise to the god, glorifying his deeds

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/2B*.html

[supporttheunderdog]

10 out of 10 for effeort but O out ten for result. A quick look at the source book shows Didorius did not equate The land of the Hyperboreans with Britain, as he put the Hyperboreans in Asia but separately wrote about Britain, which he placed opposite Gaul.
.
see the following: which is in Volume 5 p 151.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/5B*.html

I cannot see him writing twice about Britain and I would have thought that if he had intended to make the Britain the home of The Hyperboreans he would have done so.

As it is the location of the Hyperboreans has apparently been a bit flexible according to which myths other authors chose to accept, and any connection with Britain is at least questionable. By some descriptions of other authors it may have been beyond the arctic circle, by other descriptions possibly near China or in what is now Western Siberia.

[Piratis]

Piratis what happened in Briton about 1500 years or so ago is exactly what happened in Greece about 4000-3600 years ago and in Cyprus somewhere between 3200 and 2300 years ago, and in Turkey about 1000 years ago.

As for being Jingoistic or imperialist, I have always spoken out for an independent Cyprus: I don't even have a problem with the idea of the abolition of the SBA, and removal of British forces, except that SBA planning law is probably what has kept some parts of Cyprus within the SBA least unspoilt by massive over development.

Cyprus is not otherwise a Greek island but to 1906 was has been a Greco/Turkish speaking British controlled island:then it was a Greco/Turkish speaking Ottomans Controlled Island, before that it was a Greco-Frankish Island: before that it was Byzantine, before that it was Byzantine-Arab, before that it was Byzantine-Roman, before that it was Ptolomaic, before that it was Persian controlled, etc, and with 10000 year history that is quite distinct to that of Greece or Turkey. Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece, but they probably have ancestors who were Cypriot say 5000 years ago or more.

It is the failure of Cypriots to build their own identity that lead to the events of '63 and inexorably '74,

What you areotherwise basically saying is the Cypriots are incapable or rulling tjhemselves. What a damning indictment that is. Not a view I share.

Cyprus is no different than any other Greek territory or island with the ONLY difference that our right for freedom and self-determination was denied to us.

All Greek territories and islands were part of empires, there is absolutely nothing different in Cyprus about this, and for the most part Cyprus was part of the same empire as the rest of Greece. Who occupied our lands does not determine who we are, and this is what an Imperialist like you has trouble to understand. We were never Persians, or Turks, or French, or English. Even when these foreigners occupied our lands we were still Greeks. The exact same thing holds true for all other Greek territories and islands.

And what does it mean "Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece"? Do the people of Manchester have many ancestors that come from London?

And why the people of Manchester failed to build their own identity and create their own separate country? Are they incapable of ruling themselves? Why didn't the Liverpudlians do the same? Not only that, but in the same country you even have Welsh, Scottish and Irish!! Why is that? Why is the UK one country and note 100 little ones?

I will tell you why: Because power is in the unity. If the UK was not a single entity but instead 100 little ones then the people there would have no power whatsoever.

This is why UK is a single country, and this is why you didn't allow unity within our nation. Because you wanted to keep Cyprus isolated, making it easier for you to continue to exploit our island. It is our isolation that you were after, not our independence. Do you know many independent countries with foreign "guarantors", foreign armies, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, and where a minority created by foreign invaders is granted racist privileges and the right to veto the democratic decisions of the majority of the population?

The problem of Cyprus is that is still not liberated from the foreign oppressors. Take the British and the Turks out of Cyprus and let the Cypriot people democratically decide about their own island and Cyprus will have no problem.

[B25]

Piratis, I wouldn't call STUD an imperialist file.

You may have a point on all the other issues, but he has supported the removal of the bases and independence of Cyprus in the past.

But yes, in general I support all that you say.

[yialousa1971]

In a post about the ancestory of Cypriots, in an attempt to divert attention Piratis began to make assertions about the ancestory of the English.

According to the most recent reasearch, and contrary to popular belief, the English are NOT predominantly descended from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, but probably from Neolithic peoples who probably came to Brtitain from Spain along the Atlantic coast, in the period after the end of the last glacial maximum and before the Channel land-bridge was flooded/destroyed, i.e. between 10,000 and 7,500 years ago. By and large later invaders / immigrants do not appear to have each added more than 5% to the British gene pool: locally there are some greater levels, probably descended from concentrations of settlers/invaders, but predominantly both MtDNA and YDNA. tends to support a longer term stable population.

The Anglo-Saxon genetic origin is something of myth.

see the work of Sykes, Oppenheimer etc
http://www.jogg.info/31/campbell.pdf
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2006/ ... hancestry/

One school of thought suggests that the Germanic language that modern ERnglish is descended from may in fact have been present in Britain since before the time of the Romans, though the jury is out on that one.

See http://www.proto-english.org/sum1.html

To answer one question of Piratis there is threfore a perobablity that the principal source peoples of my ancestors came from the peoples who built Stone Henge.

Answers comming soon Dog.

[supporttheunderdog]

Cyprus is no different than any other Greek territory or island with the ONLY difference that our right for freedom and self-determination was denied to us.

All Greek territories and islands were part of empires, there is absolutely nothing different in Cyprus about this, and for the most part Cyprus was part of the same empire as the rest of Greece. Who occupied our lands does not determine who we are, and this is what an Imperialist like you has trouble to understand. We were never Persians, or Turks, or French, or English. Even when these foreigners occupied our lands we were still Greeks. The exact same thing holds true for all other Greek territories and islands.

And what does it mean "Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece"? Do the people of Manchester have many ancestors that come from London?

And why the people of Manchester failed to build their own identity and create their own separate country? Are they incapable of ruling themselves? Why didn't the Liverpudlians do the same? Not only that, but in the same country you even have Welsh, Scottish and Irish!! Why is that? Why is the UK one country and note 100 little ones?

I will tell you why: Because power is in the unity. If the UK was not a single entity but instead 100 little ones then the people there would have no power whatsoever.

This is why UK is a single country, and this is why you didn't allow unity within our nation. Because you wanted to keep Cyprus isolated, making it easier for you to continue to exploit our island. It is our isolation that you were after, not our independence. Do you know many independent countries with foreign "guarantors", foreign armies, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, and where a minority created by foreign invaders is granted racist privileges and the right to veto the democratic decisions of the majority of the population?

The problem of Cyprus is that is still not liberated from the foreign oppressors. Take the British and the Turks out of Cyprus and let the Cypriot people democratically decide about their own island and Cyprus will have no problem.

England has not been a subsidiary part of any empire for about 1600 years. England been a single political entity for 1200 years. England has not been sucessfully invaded/conquered for about 945 years. One cannot say that for either Greece or Cyprus.

Both Manchester and Liverpool were only granted independant borough status in the 13th or 14t centuries so they have always been a part of the Nation-State of England.

I understand that if one goes back about 700 years, barring more recent immigrants, all the English are related whereby either all of the English then living are the ancestors of all current living English or they have no living decendants: therefore every Englishman living in Machester is probably decended from every Londonder who (a) lived about 700 years ago and (b) who has living decendants.

This was after the formation of Anglo Saxon/ Norman culture.

I suspect one has to go back a lot further before one can claim the same for what is now Greece and the Greek Cypriots, possibly to before the time the peoples who gave Greece (let alone Cyprus) their current Language etc lived in either Greece or Cyprus.

We speak the same language as the United States of America - but we see no need to achieve Enosis with them.

[CBBB]

Cyprus is no different than any other Greek territory or island with the ONLY difference that our right for freedom and self-determination was denied to us.

All Greek territories and islands were part of empires, there is absolutely nothing different in Cyprus about this, and for the most part Cyprus was part of the same empire as the rest of Greece. Who occupied our lands does not determine who we are, and this is what an Imperialist like you has trouble to understand. We were never Persians, or Turks, or French, or English. Even when these foreigners occupied our lands we were still Greeks. The exact same thing holds true for all other Greek territories and islands.

And what does it mean "Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece"? Do the people of Manchester have many ancestors that come from London?

And why the people of Manchester failed to build their own identity and create their own separate country? Are they incapable of ruling themselves? Why didn't the Liverpudlians do the same? Not only that, but in the same country you even have Welsh, Scottish and Irish!! Why is that? Why is the UK one country and note 100 little ones?

I will tell you why: Because power is in the unity. If the UK was not a single entity but instead 100 little ones then the people there would have no power whatsoever.

This is why UK is a single country, and this is why you didn't allow unity within our nation. Because you wanted to keep Cyprus isolated, making it easier for you to continue to exploit our island. It is our isolation that you were after, not our independence. Do you know many independent countries with foreign "guarantors", foreign armies, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, and where a minority created by foreign invaders is granted racist privileges and the right to veto the democratic decisions of the majority of the population?

The problem of Cyprus is that is still not liberated from the foreign oppressors. Take the British and the Turks out of Cyprus and let the Cypriot people democratically decide about their own island and Cyprus will have no problem.

England has not been a subsidiary part of any empire for about 1600 years. England been a single political entity for 1200 years. England has not been sucessfully invaded/conquered for about 945 years. One cannot say that for either Greece or Cyprus.

Both Manchester and Liverpool were only granted independant borough status in the 13th or 14t centuries so they have always been a part of the Nation-State of England.

I understand that if one goes back about 700 years, barring more recent immigrants, all the English are related whereby either all of the English then living are the ancestors of all current living English or they have no living decendants: therefore every Englishman living in Machester is probably decended from every Londonder who (a) lived about 700 years ago and (b) who has living decendants.

This was after the formation of Anglo Saxon/ Norman culture.

I suspect one has to go back a lot further before one can claim the same for what is now Greece and the Greek Cypriots, possibly to before the time the peoples who gave Greece (let alone Cyprus) their current Language etc lived in either Greece or Cyprus.

We speak the same language as the United States of America - but we see no need to achieve Enosis with them.

You don't need Enosis, you do what they say anyway!

[yialousa1971]

Cyprus is no different than any other Greek territory or island with the ONLY difference that our right for freedom and self-determination was denied to us.

All Greek territories and islands were part of empires, there is absolutely nothing different in Cyprus about this, and for the most part Cyprus was part of the same empire as the rest of Greece. Who occupied our lands does not determine who we are, and this is what an Imperialist like you has trouble to understand. We were never Persians, or Turks, or French, or English. Even when these foreigners occupied our lands we were still Greeks. The exact same thing holds true for all other Greek territories and islands.

And what does it mean "Probably few Cypriots have any ancestors from what is now Greece"? Do the people of Manchester have many ancestors that come from London?

And why the people of Manchester failed to build their own identity and create their own separate country? Are they incapable of ruling themselves? Why didn't the Liverpudlians do the same? Not only that, but in the same country you even have Welsh, Scottish and Irish!! Why is that? Why is the UK one country and note 100 little ones?

I will tell you why: Because power is in the unity. If the UK was not a single entity but instead 100 little ones then the people there would have no power whatsoever.

This is why UK is a single country, and this is why you didn't allow unity within our nation. Because you wanted to keep Cyprus isolated, making it easier for you to continue to exploit our island. It is our isolation that you were after, not our independence. Do you know many independent countries with foreign "guarantors", foreign armies, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, and where a minority created by foreign invaders is granted racist privileges and the right to veto the democratic decisions of the majority of the population?

The problem of Cyprus is that is still not liberated from the foreign oppressors. Take the British and the Turks out of Cyprus and let the Cypriot people democratically decide about their own island and Cyprus will have no problem.

England has not been a subsidiary part of any empire for about 1600 years. England been a single political entity for 1200 years. England has not been sucessfully invaded/conquered for about 945 years. One cannot say that for either Greece or Cyprus.

Both Manchester and Liverpool were only granted independant borough status in the 13th or 14t centuries so they have always been a part of the Nation-State of England.

I understand that if one goes back about 700 years, barring more recent immigrants, all the English are related whereby either all of the English then living are the ancestors of all current living English or they have no living decendants: therefore every Englishman living in Machester is probably decended from every Londonder who (a) lived about 700 years ago and (b) who has living decendants.

This was after the formation of Anglo Saxon/ Norman culture.

I suspect one has to go back a lot further before one can claim the same for what is now Greece and the Greek Cypriots, possibly to before the time the peoples who gave Greece (let alone Cyprus) their current Language etc lived in either Greece or Cyprus.

We speak the same language as the United States of America - but we see no need to achieve Enosis with them.

Who told you this, not someone who was educated to a very high level such as these!

The most complete study of Greek skeletal material from Neolithic to modern times was carried out by American anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel who found that in the early age racial variability in Greece was 7% above average, indicating that the Greeks had multiple origins within the Europid racial family. Angel noted that from the earliest times to the present “racial continuity in Greece is striking.” Buxton who had earlier studied Greek skeletal material and measured modern Greeks, especially in Cyprus, finds that the modern Greeks “possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of the former [ancient Greeks].”
The most extensive study of modern Greeks has been carried by the Greek anthropologist Aris N. Poulianos. Poulianos’ study included the collection and study of more than seventy anthropometric measurements from a large sample of thousands of Greeks from different parts of the country. His main conclusions are that both Greeks and their neighboring populations are basically a mixture of Aegeans (a Mediterranean type local to the area) and Epirotics (Dinarics(e)) and are descended from the ancient inhabitants of the lands in which they live.
Nikolaos Xirotiris, more recently, surveyed Greek skeletal material and a number of genetical and anthropometrical studies on modern Greeks. His discoveries were that like in antiquity, the Greek terrain which favors isolation, has led to the formation of local types by micro-evolution. He too concludes racial continuity in Greece, not finding traces of any significant alteration of the Greek racial complex, from prehistory, through classical and medieval, to modern times.
Finally, a more recent statistical comparison of ancient and modern Greek skulls resulted in the discovery of “a remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between modern and ancient Greeks.”

[yialousa1971]

The Y chromosomes of the “modern” and “medieval” Wirral and West Lancashire samples were analyzed using 6 microsatellites (supplementary table, Supplementary Material online) and a total of 13 binary markers defining 13 haplogroups (fig. 2), of which 8 were observed. These haplogroups are typical of western European Y chromosomes, with one exception: a single example of hgE3a in the Wirral medieval sample. This haplogroup is typical of sub-Saharan African populations, comprising 48% of a continent-wide sample of 1,122 African chromosomes (Wood et al. 2005), and is not reported in a composite sample of 2,193 British Isles males (Capelli et al. 2003; King et al. 2007). It probably represents an African migrant but not a recent one because the individual carrying the chromosome reports at least 4 generations of residence in the Wirral. It may, like an hgA1 chromosome found previously in a man with ancestry in Yorkshire (King et al. 2007), represent African presence (Fryer 1984) via the Roman occupation or the Atlantic slave trade, and the proximity of the Wirral to the port of Liverpool might suggest the latter.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/2/301.full