Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Strange how most medals for England in all major Athletic competitions are won by black people.

I am not changing the topic at all. This is the same topic. Cyprus is no different than any other place, and I am using your own country as an example. The majority of the Cypriot people are Greek for thousands of years. The majority of people of this island are Greek for far longer than the people of what you today call "England" are English.

I repeat - Cyprus was nver a part of the Greek nation - that only emerged in 1821.

You are repeating nonsense, and you are confusing the concept of the nation with that of a state. Furthermore Cyprus would have been part of the Greek state if this was allowed to us by the foreign invaders. It was not our choice.

As for Turkey in 1955 it was then just about 30 years since the major Greco-Turkish war and at that point Turkey was just beginning to assert itself as a local power - there were already Anti-Greek riots - and I suspect that rather then being invited to the party by Britain, Turkey invited itself, having decided that despite the 1953 treaty, a Greek Outpost in that location was not acceptable. (The situation in 1947, when Rhodes was handed by Italians to Greece, was very different: Turkey was impoverished and facing threats from the east - there had been a short war with Russia in 1945 and Turkey was not in a position to act - by 1955 a lot had changed).

What you say is not true. Britain enticed Turkey to get involved with Cyprus in 1956. But even if what you claimed was true, then why didn't Britain respect the wishes of the Cypriot people even earlier than that? Do you think that 1955 was the first time we asked for our freedom?

As for seeking Freedom? No it was giving it away to Greece!

Thats the same as saying that Athens, Salonika, Crete, Rhodes etc gave away their freedom to Greece. Or like saying that London, Manchester and Liverpool gave away their freedom to England.

All those supporting Enosis after 1960 were in my view traitors to the ROC

The RoC was imposed on Cypriots by brute force and blackmail. The point is that RoC should have not been created to begin with, and that the Cypriot people should have been allowed to freely decide the destiny of their own island. And if the Cypriot people had chosen independence, then they should have written their own constitution , not have one imposed by foreigners.

[denizaksulu]

[Piratis]

Piratis, do you believe the RoC should disolve and that Cyprus should become a part of Greece?

No. I believe that this should have been an option, along with the option of a true independence (not the fake one they forced on us), for the Cypriot people to democratically choose from in the 1950s (if not earlier).

What Cyprus should do from now on should again be something that the Cypriot people, one person one vote, should be able to freely and democratically decide, without being forced and blackmailed.

What I would personally choose is not the point. The point is that Cypriots should be free to take democratic choices for their own island. I would respect any such democratic choice, but I refuse to respect anything which is imposed on us by foreigners.

[supporttheunderdog]

You are the deluded victim of what is probably a 19th Century Myth

The majority of the Cypriot people are Greek for thousands of years. The majority of people of this island are Greek for far longer than the people of what you today call "England" are English.

Bollocks - the majority of the residents of this Island have been Cypriots for 1000's of years with little or no "Greek" Ancestry- the Greek language was imposed by foreign invaders (who you seem to despise) including initially the illiterate Mycenaean in 1200 BC or so (who had to borrow Cypriot scribes and their script to write for them) and later the Ptolomys in about 300BC. While it may be by reason of conquest that CYPRIOTS have spoken Greek as the dominant language since 300BC (up to then 3 languages were in use ) Cyprus was never a part of the Greek nation - that only emerged in 1821-28.

There was no such thing as the Greek nation - there were a collection of city states that used to beat the Sh1t out of each other and periodically sold each other out to other powers, until they fell under the Control of the Macedonians (who were seen by Athenians as uncouth barbarians) and later the Romans.

see http://www.historynet.com/wars-of-alexa ... -issus.htm see how the Spartan were seemingly happy to sell out Alexander to the Persians, who were lead by a Greek called Memnon!

What the English were does not come into it so wind your neck in on that one!

You are repeating nonsense, and you are confusing the concept of the nation with that of a state. Furthermore Cyprus would have been part of the Greek state if this was allowed to us by the foreign invaders. It was not our choice.

That's realpolitik for you - see the above on the emergence of a unified Greek nation - for thousands of years there was no such thing

That aside Turkey was probably not from 1955 onwards going to permit Enosis, what ever anybody else said.

What you say is not true. Britain enticed Turkey to get involved with Cyprus in 1956. But even if what you claimed was true, then why didn't Britain respect the wishes of the Cypriot people even earlier than that? Do you think that 1955 was the first time we asked for our freedom?

Did they entice the Turks? They may have sought support from those on Cyprus who were opposed to the aims of Enosis and to the acts of the terrorist thugs and murders of Eoka, who were CYPRIOTS who mainly spoke Turkish - but The Anti-Greek sentiment was happening in Turkey 1955 and no doubt Turkey saw it as an excuse to get a foot in the door, by promoting Takism - something I deplore as much as Enosis, particularly if what MEM101 says is true about TSC origins .

I also deplore the 1958 murders of GSC by Turkish inspired terrorists of TMT.

As for not giving Cyprus its wishes before 1955, Britain had its own reasons - that is called Realpolitik. It wasn't nice - international politics are not a moral business, so tough! That was then0 this is now. Get over it!

Thats the same as saying that Athens, Salonika, Crete, Rhodes etc gave away their freedom to Greece. Or like saying that London, Manchester and Liverpool gave away their freedom to England.
[/unquote]

I am not discussing the Britishness of British cities : that is off-topic.

The RoC was imposed on Cypriots by brute force and blackmail. The point is that RoC should have not been created to begin with, and that the Cypriot people should have been allowed to freely decide the destiny of their own island. And if the Cypriot people had chosen independence, then they should have written their own consideration, not have one imposed by foreigners.

In 19550-60 it was the best deal Cyprus was going to get

As it was it was the Cypriots (both Greek Speaking a Turkish speaking) who first violated the treaties by continuing to promote Enosis and Takism after 1960, as exemplified most by that original A - plan, The Akritas Plan, which Clerides has said was written by Papadop.

That lead to the effective division of the Island in 1964 along the original Green Line and was a contributory factor to the invasion.

Finally if you cannot live with being Cypriot either commit suicide or take yourself off to Greece.

[Piratis]

You are the deluded victim of what is probably a 19th Century Myth

You are a deluded victim of what is certainly a 20th century myth created by the British as part of their plan to isolate Cyprus from the rest of the Greek nation so it would be easier for them to maintain parts of our island under colonial rule.

Bollocks - the majority of the residents of this Island have been Cypriots for 1000's of years with little or no "Greek" Ancestry- the Greek language was imposed by foreign invaders (who you seem to despise) including initially the illiterate Mycenaean in 1200 BC or so (who had to borrow Cypriot scribes and their script to write for them) and later the Ptolomys in about 300BC. While it may be by reason of conquest that CYPRIOTS have spoken Greek as the dominant language since 300BC (up to then 3 languages were in use ) Cyprus was never a part of the Greek nation - that only emerged in 1821-28.

Just like the AngloSaxons were invaders of Britain. Difference is that we came to this island 1000s of years before the AngloSaxons went to Britain, when Cyprus was still mostly uninhabited.

There was no such thing as the Greek nation - there were a collection of city states that used to beat the Sh1t out of each other and periodically sold each other out to other powers, until they fell under the Control of the Macedonians (who were seen by Athenians as uncouth barbarians) and later the Romans.

These city states were Greek city states. Nation States is what was created in the 19th century.

As for not giving Cyprus its wishes before 1955, Britain had its own reasons - that is called Realpolitik. It wasn't nice - international politics are not a moral business, so tough! That was then0 this is now. Get over it!

Thank you for admitting that you are immoral. And then you want us to take advice from you about what we should do?

I am not discussing the Britishness of British cities : that is off-topic.

It is not off-topic since Cypriot cities are far more Greek than any cities in Britain are English. Nothing exists in a vacuum and everything is relative. If you can say that London is English or that "Istanbul" is Turkish, then there is no way to question how Greek the cities in Cyprus are, unless you are using double standards.

Finally if you cannot live with being Cypriot either commit suicide or take yourself off to Greece.

This is my island and and no foreigner is going to tell me what to do. I am Cypriot, and most Cypriots are Greek. Deal with it, because no Turkish or British propaganda will change who we are. You can occupy our island, you can kill people, oppress us and enslave us, and whatever else you do with your "Realpolitik", but one thing you can't do is to change our identity.

[supporttheunderdog]

By what wonderful theory did the Cypriots become Greek? - I say it was through conquest and eltist ascendancy - The genetics show you (AND THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS) are Cypriot not Greek -(or Turkish) On the language point - Americans may speak English but they they are not English -

[Piratis]

By what wonderful theory did the Cypriots become Greek?

In the exact same way that what you call today "England" became English, with the only difference that Greeks came to Cyprus 1000s of years before the AngloSaxons went to Britain, when Cyprus was still mostly uninhabited. And that is how Greek mainland became Greek as well. Or you thought that the Greeks there grew out of the land, or that maybe what is today Greece was totally uninhabited until the Greeks came?

Therefore Cyprus is far more Greek than any place in Britain is English, and way way way more Greek than any place in Asia Minor is Turkish.

Genetic variations exist from place to place, and that is perfectly natural because nations are created by many different people. Or maybe you thought that if we go back in history we will find the Greek "monkey" the English "monkey", the Turkish "monkey" etc, and all "real" members of a nation are those that decent from the same "monkey"?

Genetic variations exist even within Cyprus, with differences between say Paphos and Larnaca. And obviously such variations exist within England and any other country. Only a Nazi fascist like you would try to use such weak points about genetics in order to excuse the oppression of Cyprus. So just continue with your "Realpolitik" criminal practices but don't hope that we are buying any of your lame excuses for denying to us our self-determination and freedom.

[supporttheunderdog]

can you put in some dates about when you say Cyprus became Greek, or for that matter when Greece became Greek, on the basis of the Introduction of a language related to Greek and say worship of the Greek Pantheon lead by Zeus, and explain how this process happened?

Go on- educate me -

My own understanding is that the area from the fertile crescent through to what is now Greece (and including Anatolia and Cyprus) had been settled by several successive waves who had probably come along the coast in the period from about 10000 BC onwards, to before 2000BC ( probably YDNA E1B1, G, I, J, )- they formed the great civilisations of the fertile crescent, Enkomi in Cyprus, and the Minoan Civilisation of Crete, as well as the original population of what is now Greece, - they had writing - but they were not in any way Greek as they did not speak a Greek related language and they did not worship the Greek pantheon lead by Zeus, but principally a female mother Goddess.

The first peoples recognsieable as Greek reportedly only entered Greece from the north from about the beginning to Middle of the 2nd Millennium BC: they were Indo-European originating on the Russian Steppes with Ydna R1. They were the Hellenes consisting of the four tribes of Achaeans, Dorian Ionians and Aeolian. They spoke a language that was the direct forerunner of Greek and worshiped the pantheon of goods led by Zeus. The exact sequence of arrivals is not clear but the Achaeans probably began to dominate the Southern part of Greece from about 1600 BC, meeting and conquering the (non Greek) Minoans in about 1500 BC, and forming the Mycenaean Civilisation. They were probably functionally illiterate to start with, only acquiring writing (Linear B, a modified form of Linear A) from the Minoans.

Greekness (i.e language and religion, etc) appear to have become dominant in Greece and Crete through elitist ascendancy./forceable imposition.

The Mycenaeans however traded with Cyprus, principally with Enkomi (an important state in those days with the export of Copper and possibly where Nefertiti came from) and at about 1200-1050 BC coinciding with the collapse of the the Mycenaean civilisation in Greece some remnants appear to have conquered (and rebuilt) Enkomi.

These remnants still appear to have been functionally illiterate as they did not use their own linear B script but probably used local scribes to write for them in the Phonetic Cypriot Syllabary. which later became the basis for the Greek Alphabet.

These Mycenaean remnants do not appear to have dominated the whole Island: the original Cypriot language appeared to have survived - in particular at Amathus, while the Phoenicians (and not the "Greeks") appear to have started colonies in the 9th century BC onwards, for example taking Kition from the Mycenaean. ( I understand the Athenians may have looked upon and refered to the original ZoC as Phoenician)

It was only in about 300 BC with the conquest of Cyprus by Ptolomy that non Greek languages were suppressed and Hellenisation forcibly imposed on the whole Island.

The Ydna does however suggest that relatively few Cypriots are R1 in Origin (so are not descended from the true R1 Hellenes) and for that matter that the majority of Greeks do not have R1 Dna but their Genos can be rather more closely traced back to the original E1b1 G I J peoples who inhabited the area before the R1 Hellenic peoples arrived.

[Bananiot]

You can become Greek by ... proxy, but Piratis could never get to use this perfectly useful argument. Little he knows that the majority of Greeks are not Greeks either but Albanians and Slavs. However, if you want to be anything, because it makes you feel happy, nobody can stop you. It is how you fare in this world that is important. Shakespear was English but so was Jack the Ripper.

[supporttheunderdog]

Dear Banaiot

I must take issue with you on the point about Slaves and Albanians: The Slavs are principally defined by either a particular mutation of R1a, or in particular I2A2 for the Southern Slavs - I2A2 is presnt but not not common in either Greeks or Albanians, suggesting little Slavic genetic input in to either - the Albanians tend to be E1B1 or J2b (with some limited Slavic input and that suggests they are probably principally descended from the same stock of probably Fertile Crescent origin who formed the original pupulations of Anatolia, Greece, and Cyprus, etc.