Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Im willing to take my chances and we will see who is right and wrong. Your plan is a total sell out and rejected once again.

[boulio]

What do you know about the Swiss Democracy.?

Swiss Democracy works fine for me in Switzerland and would in Cyprus too, if we had a Confederate Cyprus, but we don't, so why talk about it.!

Why don't you go and ask the EU just which parts of the GCs Democratic, Human rights, International law and the EU Principles you can violate in order to have a settlement in Cyprus, an EU member state, and then we can listen to your long list of gibberish about what kind of a settlement we can have in Cyprus.

My plan is the best you are going to get, which gives you everything you asked for, including the not so True Democratic TC/GC in a "Rotating Presidency", but as long as the TC/GC Presidential candidates run as one ticket to be elected as ONE team by ALL Cypriots, I don't see it as being a major violation of True Democratic principles. I have already explained to you all the other advantages in a BBF for the TCs, including the "Grandfathered-in Population" rule, which also borders on not being True Democratic, but with enough GC land returned, this would become a redundant rule so I'm not too concerned it violating anyone's Human Rights. Despite all this, you are still pushing for system which would violate others Democratic and Human Rights, just because you are still hanging onto your Talkim Dreams, which you think you can achieve and be in the EU too. The longer you avoid having a BBF along the lines I have suggested, you will end up not getting anything at all other than a Unitary state, and then you will be sorry. The TCs have ZERO say so in their future in Cyprus. Only the RoC and Turkey does. When the time comes for Turkey really wanting to be in the EU, it is then you will regret not taking the chance to have a BBF based on True Federation, Democracy, Human Rights, International law and the EU Principles. The time is not on your side.

hey kikapu dd you come up with a new verison of your plan and wre can i find it?i also dont ever recall this granfatherin population clause and i remeber back then you were going to come up with a map of the two federated states.

[Kikapu]

What do you know about the Swiss Democracy.?

Swiss Democracy works fine for me in Switzerland and would in Cyprus too, if we had a Confederate Cyprus, but we don't, so why talk about it.!

Why don't you go and ask the EU just which parts of the GCs Democratic, Human rights, International law and the EU Principles you can violate in order to have a settlement in Cyprus, an EU member state, and then we can listen to your long list of gibberish about what kind of a settlement we can have in Cyprus.

My plan is the best you are going to get, which gives you everything you asked for, including the not so True Democratic TC/GC in a "Rotating Presidency", but as long as the TC/GC Presidential candidates run as one ticket to be elected as ONE team by ALL Cypriots, I don't see it as being a major violation of True Democratic principles. I have already explained to you all the other advantages in a BBF for the TCs, including the "Grandfathered-in Population" rule, which also borders on not being True Democratic, but with enough GC land returned, this would become a redundant rule so I'm not too concerned it violating anyone's Human Rights. Despite all this, you are still pushing for system which would violate others Democratic and Human Rights, just because you are still hanging onto your Talkim Dreams, which you think you can achieve and be in the EU too. The longer you avoid having a BBF along the lines I have suggested, you will end up not getting anything at all other than a Unitary state, and then you will be sorry. The TCs have ZERO say so in their future in Cyprus. Only the RoC and Turkey does. When the time comes for Turkey really wanting to be in the EU, it is then you will regret not taking the chance to have a BBF based on True Federation, Democracy, Human Rights, International law and the EU Principles. The time is not on your side.

hey kikapu dd you come up with a new verison of your plan and wre can i find it?i also dont ever recall this granfatherin population clause and i remeber back then you were going to come up with a map of the two federated states.

Boulio,


It was an add-on at later stage to my BBF plan, because I got tired of listen to VP saying that the GCs would flood the north state if it were too small in order for them to steal one of the north's senate seats, so as an added insurance for the TCs, I came up with this "Grandfathered-in Population" rule which VP avoids talking about it, because he is now out of excuses in giving back at least 50% of the north back. Only yesterday he admitted that the GCs would not move to the north state at all as I've told him, which would make this clause very redundant.

I don't believe I have stated how the two states territory would look like. I believe others have done something along those lines, but not me. I only talked about the size of each state in percentages, but not the actual shape.

The answer depends on what options you present the GCs with, in whether or not they want to be accommodating to allow the north state to remain majority TCs. If the overwhelming GC refugees land is returned to become part of the south state, then the answer is a "NO", but if you want to keep the overwhelming GCs land to become part of the north state, then the answer is a possible "YES". You would control the outcome based on how much GC land you want to keep. You cannot keep their land and then not expect them to try and get it back in anyway they can. By returning only 7-8% land back as per AP, you are not even returning the land of 50,000-60,000 GCs, which would then leave about 120,000 GCs land in the north, which they will have the right to move into under freedom of movement, even if they are all not able to return back to the same houses, but will be able to return back to the villages they once lived before. With 120,000 GCs already in the north state, it will be very easy to increase their numbers by more GCs moving to the north, just because they will have security through their numbers. If on the other hand the north state is reduced to 18%-20% and most TCs would live in the north, then only a very smal number of GCs would have their property in the north, less than 30,000 GCs. Even if they all would move to the north, which I doubt more than 5,000 moving, the TCs would maintain the overwhelming majority and still have a Democratic system.

I had also stated in my BBF thread, that if the TCs were to make good compromises on land to be returned back to the GCs where the overwhelming majority of the GC land is returned, then the TCs can ask for derogation from the EU and the GCs to only allow those GCs who still have land in the north state to become the "Grandfathered-in Population" with all their Democratic rights protected. What that would mean is that, lets just say 30,000 GCs still has property in the north state, that those 30,000 GCs would then have the right to be in the north state, whether they actually live in the north state or not. They would become the "Grandfathered-in Population" of the north, against the population of the TCs at around 70,000-80,000 and 50,000 allowed settlers to total around 140,000-150,000 TCs plus more TCs coming from abroad to settle in the north as time goes by, which would push the north's TC population to a potential 200,000. The derogation would be, that the number of potential GCs wanting to live in the north state can grow ONLY at the same rate as the growth of the TC population in the north (Cypriot citizens only). If the TC population grows at 2% per year, then the north's potential maximum GC population can only grow at 2% also, based on the "Grandfathered in Population" numbers, which is 30,000, allowing growth rate of about 600 more GCs to be added to that 30,000 number to become 30,600 for that year whether or not they are actually living in the north. This new number, 30,600 will then become the next "Grandfathered-in Population" for that year. The smaller the north state is with as little GCs properties as possible, the smaller the "Grandfathered-in Population" number will be.

These are the option you need to decide on. I don't believe you will get that many GCs living in the north however, therefore the above derogation would be only academic and redundant and may never be used, but it will secure the TCs keeping the north majority TCs as well as keeping the upper house seats in the TCs hand in a Democratic way, agreed to by all sides.! If you want the same derogation to apply by keeping the north state to be around 30%,then the GCs may not be so accommodating and will tell you "NO". Why would they let you keep their land in the north state when they want to be in the south state. Even if they said yes, then the "Grandfathered-in Population" would start from around 120,000 GCs with an increase of 2,400 per year at 2% vs. the population of the TCs in the north at around 150,000, assuming all the TCs would move to the north state. As you can see from the numbers, you will create a lot of problems for yourselves in trying to keep the north a majority TC and keeping the upper house in the hands of the TCs. There is no free lunch, VP. You choose, but be prepared to live with the consequences when things start going wrong for you in the north politically if you want to keep most of the GC land to remain in the north state.

But there is a much easier way to do away with all these problems, and that is to do away with ethnic political parties altogether in Cyprus and have ONLY Political Parties based on Political ideology. How can anyone then have any concerns who lives where and how many, since all the political parties would include people from all ethnicity. That is the way how civilized countries have done it in a multi ethnic places, like Switzerland for example, as well as all the multicultural societies across the Democratic West.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=270

[Viewpoint]

What do you mean I have run out of arguments, I have on many occasions exposed your plan for what it really is a sell out.

[Kikapu]

What do you mean I have run out of arguments, I have on many occasions exposed your plan for what it really is a sell out.

The only thing you have exposed is your argument of being nothing but a propaganda for not to have peace so that you can continue enjoying the "spoils of war". It may take me time, but in the end, I expose the truth as I've done with you once again. You have claimed endlessly that the GCs would flood the north, but look what you have said below, because the truth is, you want the 29% and not less, therefore all your GCs flooding the north is just more propaganda. You have been exposed for your propaganda once again.

Willing to take the risk with Grandfathered in Population, ho and the Greek language will be fine in 29% as i do not think that many GCs will want to live amongst TCs or hear Turkish as the dominant language. Plus more the TCs will stay put instead of being made into refugees for the 3rd time.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=210

Not all the TCs needs not move. They can be part of the south state if you get the "Grandfathered-in Population" at 20%, which means not all the TCs needs to be in the north state as long as you have a high majority TCs in the north.

So you are not afraid of being swamped by the GCs after all, because you believe they do not want to come to the north, as I've been telling you all this time. But you still need to compromise, since they want to be part of the south state in order to give you the "Grandfathered-in Population" derogation. They want to make sure, in case you try to make another attempt to declare the north as an Independent state from the union.! Besides, once the majority of the settlers are sent back, at 20%, you will have more territory than you îll be able to cope with and remain within your state budget, hopefully.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=210

[Viewpoint]

You have only exposed your own faulty and dangerous plan and are trying to twist what I have said by lieing. The flooding risk is the same whether we reduce to 29% or 19%, in fact it may be easier for GCs to exploit the loophole you have so kindly gifted them if the north was 19% as there would be less need for large numbers of GCs to move north to take the 1 seat necessary to sweep TCs to one side yet again.

[boulio]

there was a poll done last year vp if refuggees would return to a northern state by cyprus 2015 i believe it didnt even receive 15% for return to the northern state.many said they just wanted there properties to sell or to be compenaseted with todays prices.if the north state is 18 or 25 or 29 %you will not get many g/c coming back.the smaller the state the less g/c,

[BirKibrisli]

Well said Bir

there you go, birkturk.... if this lowlife thinks u said "well", u surely didn't.

What that 'lowlife' thinks is something you 'highlife' will never understand...Because you lack intelligence,sensitivity,empathy and compassion...What you think is of no consequence to 'lowlives' like VP and myself...Get it into your thick skull!

[boulio]

another issue is whta about eu nationals living in the north(british)will they not have rights either?what if over time other eu nationals settle in the north will they not be allowed to vote for senators either or is this just against g/c because you hate them so much vp?

[Viewpoint]

there was a poll done last year vp if refuggees would return to a northern state by cyprus 2015 i believe it didnt even receive 15% for return to the northern state.many said they just wanted there properties to sell or to be compenaseted with todays prices.if the north state is 18 or 25 or 29 %you will not get many g/c coming back.the smaller the state the less g/c,

In reality the size of the state makes no difference but you must understand that as the smaller it gets less TCs will be left or they will be made refugees for the third time, is that ok with you? The risk is the same if the GCs decide to exploit the opportunity to swamp the north to take full power of the whole island if they so wish. Thats why a grandfathered in structure was suggested by Kikapu which confirms that the size of the state can be 29% as less TCs will be made refugees.