Cyprus-Forum.com

[ZoC]

I am sure no more than 5000 people would turn up...That is how it is...You can take or leave it and believe what you want to believe...The choice is yours...

5,000? i'm not sure i can believe that this number of tcs have that much integrity, vision and balls.

[DTA]

I have bad news for some of you...VP's views are representative of the majority of the TCs both inside and outside the trnc...I know you'd like to point to recent protests and banners and say 'look the TCs want Turkey out',but that only indicates your wishful thinking...Rauf Denktash's wife was at the last meeting,and he himself said he would've been there had he known the protests would be peaceful...Now you can't possible claim Papa Denktash wants Turkey out of Cyprus...

The meeting was largely about the economic package,plus the heavy handed and undemocratic way the AKP government is going about implementing it...Sure there were those who took the opportunity to shout anti-Turkish slogans,but they were the know minority called the Jasmin Movement,whose candidate scored about 1% of the votes at the last elections...


Quote:
Sir , I have read a few of your posts I have also read some by VP , the distinct difference between you and VP is that where you believe that unification is possible and desirable VP does not , where you also commit your self to the island of Cyprus , VP does not , where you believe that the G/Cs and T/Cs can share this island VP is committed to permanent partition
he also considers the ROC as a foreign country with which he wants nothing to do with , you don't Sir . Your views may be interwinef with some of VPs
but they are nit compatible , your signature says much about your views .
You talk if empathy , VP NEVER !!!
With due respect Sir you are not a VP !
May I also agree with you that many GCs consider CYprus as another GReek island , I do not by the way but I understand the reasons why they do so , the island has been under Greek influnce for a few thousand years , there is justification as why the erroneous perception is so deep rooted but um sure that youvwill agree that Cypriotness is a force that is growing amongst both communities , having read some of your posts I would wager a bet that YOU consider the island of CYprus rather than Turkey as your true motherland , NOT VP I think!!
Most of the T/Cs that I know have views differing from those expressed by VP . May I also express my support for those Cypriots who justifiably gave reservations against unification , wanting guarantees etc , I understand their concerns in view of the dreadful events that took place in the past , empathy is what is required , both communities suffered a great deal !


The GCs have only themselves to blame if the majority of TCs are still suspicious of their motives...Can you blame us when you have people insisting that Cyprus is a Greek island,and only the GCs will have a say in her destiny??? You had the reins of power (which you stole from the TCs back in 1963) for nearly 50 years...You did nothing in all that time to bring about trust,understanding,respect,let alone empathy and compassion...You have proved time and time again that the ENOSIS spirit is alive and well,and you are still hell bent on 'crush trough or crush' strategy of forcing your Greekness down the throuts of the TCs..Are you surprised they keep spitting it back into your faces???

The TCs will only trust you when you stop this 'Cyprus is Greek' nonsense,
embrace them as equal Cypriots with as much say in their own destiny as you have in yours...Accept the spirit of the 1960 agreements which is accepting the TC community as equal partners in the RoC,stop being so bloodyminded about 'majority rule' which for the TCs mean 'Greek cypriot oppression' and there might be some hope of reunication in our lifetime...

Good post, although I will say again that if you ask VP his opinion he will say that he too agrees with a BBF and political equality - he has been labeled a partitionist simply because he fights the fire of bigotry (of some) GC on here with fire.

I agree though that in order for us to unite a common cypriot identity must be fostered - and the ingrained misconception that the cypriot problem can be solved in terms of one side winning and one side losing must be extinguished- but this view is prevelant, compromise is seen as tantamount to defeatism.

[Hermes]

In Turkish a 'miting' is a protest march,Hermes...I meant to say a 'miting' and it came out as 'meeting'...I am totally bilingual,so I sometimes don't even realise I am using the wrong word in the other language...

I don't have low opinion of the TCs...You would like to put your own biased opinion on what this 'protest march/meetings' was all about...And I am simply telling you you are wrong...These meetings were organised by the federation of TC trade unions,to protest against the austerity package and the way it is introduced and implemented by Turkish insistance...One well known minority movement joined the march for their own reasons and made their own points,which are perfectly legitimate in a democracy...Make no mistake about this...The democracy in the trnc is much more advanced than that of Turkey...That is why Erdogan and Co could not accept being criticised in such a robost manner...If tommorow the Jasmin Movement organised a protest march against Turkey's presence in Cyprus,I am sure no more than 5000 people would turn up...That is how it is...You can take or leave it and believe what you want to believe...The choice is yours...

I am under no illusion that the protest was about the austerity package. However you underestimate what this package means for T/Cs. It means an end to their privileges and status in the north. It means an end to the civil service as the only route for educated T/Cs to have a secure job. It means having to compete for work in a non-existent private sector. It means that university-educated T/Cs will have no future in the north as it becomes a provincial Anatolian backwater.

T/Cs have woken up to the fact that what Turkey gives it also takes away. This is why the demonstration became a "survival" protest. This is why so many T/Cs across the political spectrum turned up and why so few settlers cared. Even the clown and arch-partitionist Serdar Denktash was there to rail against Turkey's interference and demand "independence" - as if such a thing was possible.

Many T/Cs have been forced to contemplate, for the first time perhaps, just what being "saved" by Turkey means. It's maybe come too late but if it turns their minds towards a unified Cyprus within the EU as their only realistic hope for survival, then it's better late than never.

[ZoC]

Good post, although I will say again that if you ask VP his opinion he will say that he too agrees with a BBF and political equality - he has been labeled a partitionist simply because he fights the fire of bigotry (of some) GC on here with fire.

u got it all wrong. being anti vp, and wot he stands for, has nothing to do with bigotry.

[BirKibrisli]

I have bad news for some of you...VP's views are representative of the majority of the TCs both inside and outside the trnc...I know you'd like to point to recent protests and banners and say 'look the TCs want Turkey out',but that only indicates your wishful thinking...Rauf Denktash's wife was at the last meeting,and he himself said he would've been there had he known the protests would be peaceful...Now you can't possible claim Papa Denktash wants Turkey out of Cyprus...

The meeting was largely about the economic package,plus the heavy handed and undemocratic way the AKP government is going about implementing it...Sure there were those who took the opportunity to shout anti-Turkish slogans,but they were the know minority called the Jasmin Movement,whose candidate scored about 1% of the votes at the last elections...


Quote:Sir , I have read a few of your posts I have also read some by VP , the distinct difference between you and VP is that where you believe that unification is possible and desirable VP does not , where you also commit your self to the island of Cyprus , VP does not , where you believe that the G/Cs and T/Cs can share this island VP is committed to permanent partition
he also considers the ROC as a foreign country with which he wants nothing to do with , you don't Sir . Your views may be interwinef with some of VPs
but they are nit compatible , your signature says much about your views .
You talk if empathy , VP NEVER !!!
With due respect Sir you are not a VP !
May I also agree with you that many GCs consider CYprus as another GReek island , I do not by the way but I understand the reasons why they do so , the island has been under Greek influnce for a few thousand years , there is justification as why the erroneous perception is so deep rooted but um sure that youvwill agree that Cypriotness is a force that is growing amongst both communities , having read some of your posts I would wager a bet that YOU consider the island of CYprus rather than Turkey as your true motherland , NOT VP I think!!
Most of the T/Cs that I know have views differing from those expressed by VP . May I also express my support for those Cypriots who justifiably gave reservations against unification , wanting guarantees etc , I understand their concerns in view of the dreadful events that took place in the past , empathy is what is required , both communities suffered a great deal !


The GCs have only themselves to blame if the majority of TCs are still suspicious of their motives...Can you blame us when you have people insisting that Cyprus is a Greek island,and only the GCs will have a say in her destiny??? You had the reins of power (which you stole from the TCs back in 1963) for nearly 50 years...You did nothing in all that time to bring about trust,understanding,respect,let alone empathy and compassion...You have proved time and time again that the ENOSIS spirit is alive and well,and you are still hell bent on 'crush trough or crush' strategy of forcing your Greekness down the throuts of the TCs..Are you surprised they keep spitting it back into your faces???

The TCs will only trust you when you stop this 'Cyprus is Greek' nonsense,
embrace them as equal Cypriots with as much say in their own destiny as you have in yours...Accept the spirit of the 1960 agreements which is accepting the TC community as equal partners in the RoC,stop being so bloodyminded about 'majority rule' which for the TCs mean 'Greek cypriot oppression' and there might be some hope of reunication in our lifetime...

Your comments were a bit lost but I managed to find them anyway...You are mostly correct in your analysis...VP and I started from very different places,but slowly and surely our opinions on a possible,realistic solution to the problem are merging...I was very 'green' and idealistic when I first started posting here...I believed that as Cypriots we can surely find common ground to build understanding and respect which would lead to empathy and compassion which would make a solution possible..

Never in my dreams did I think I'd find such bitterness and hatred towards the Turks and TCs...And never did I expect to find people so blind and deluded about the past...It is beyond me how so many people can believe that in such a complex conflict as ours the fault or guilt would be on one side entirely...

It made me realise the extend of brain- washing which has been practised by the GC state propaganda machine...There is no other way to explain how so many people can so indignantly insist they are the innocent victims when the historical facts paint an entirely different picture...

Hence,I have made it my mission to educate the GCs here on the wrongs done by their own side,because that is the only way we might ever have a chance of reunification with a fair and lasting solution...I do believe that the GCs and TCs are Cypriots above all else,and they are more like each other than their mainlander cousins...It is hence a great disappointment to me to see that the GCs only see themselves as Cypriots,and refuse to see the TCs as their equal compatriots/partners in the RoC which the TCs were instrumental in bringing about...

Unless there is a big shift in GC historical, political and social awareness/conciousness the only solution that might be possible will be the one VP is supporting...
Albeit reluctantly, I have come to accept that as well...

[Hermes]

VP and I started from very different places,but slowly and surely our opinions on a possible,realistic solution to the problem are merging.

Maybe you weren't that far apart to begin with. Unfortunately, your "realistic" solution of partition is not on the agenda. The only realistic solution is a unified federal island under EU jurisdiction. Once you give up your separatist fantasies you might realize this.

[BirKibrisli]

In Turkish a 'miting' is a protest march,Hermes...I meant to say a 'miting' and it came out as 'meeting'...I am totally bilingual,so I sometimes don't even realise I am using the wrong word in the other language...

I don't have low opinion of the TCs...You would like to put your own biased opinion on what this 'protest march/meetings' was all about...And I am simply telling you you are wrong...These meetings were organised by the federation of TC trade unions,to protest against the austerity package and the way it is introduced and implemented by Turkish insistance...One well known minority movement joined the march for their own reasons and made their own points,which are perfectly legitimate in a democracy...Make no mistake about this...The democracy in the trnc is much more advanced than that of Turkey...That is why Erdogan and Co could not accept being criticised in such a robost manner...If tommorow the Jasmin Movement organised a protest march against Turkey's presence in Cyprus,I am sure no more than 5000 people would turn up...That is how it is...You can take or leave it and believe what you want to believe...The choice is yours...

I am under no illusion that the protest was about the austerity package. However you underestimate what this package means for T/Cs. It means an end to their privileges and status in the north. It means an end to the civil service as the only route for educated T/Cs to have a secure job. It means having to compete for work in a non-existent private sector. It means that university-educated T/Cs will have no future in the north as it becomes a provincial Anatolian backwater.

T/Cs have woken up to the fact that what Turkey gives it also takes away. This is why the demonstration became a "survival" protest. This is why so many T/Cs across the political spectrum turned up and why so few settlers cared. Even the clown and arch-partitionist Serdar Denktash was there to rail against Turkey's interference and demand "independence" - as if such a thing was possible.

Many T/Cs have been forced to contemplate, for the first time perhaps, just what being "saved" by Turkey means. It's maybe come too late but if it turns their minds towards a unified Cyprus within the EU as their only realistic hope for survival, then it's better late than never.

The point is you think these protest marches are working in your favour...
You think your long standing tactic of isolating,surrounding,and denying the TCs their rightful place in the RoC government are producing the desired outcome for you...You couldn't be further from the truth...Your bloodymindedness only made sure that the TCs have nowhere to go but throw their lot in with Turkey for good or bad times... Incase you have missed the point,the TCs are not appealing to you for help...They have given up on the RoC and trying to get the best cohabitation conditions out of Turkey...You are still too blind to realise this...You have forced that choice on them and they have no alternative now but to deny their Cypriotness and become good and obedient Turks...The fault, guilt and the shame of it are entirely on your shoulders...I see these marches as the funeral rites of Cypriotness and those of a possible reunification agreement...Time will prove me right...

[BirKibrisli]

VP and I started from very different places,but slowly and surely our opinions on a possible,realistic solution to the problem are merging.

Maybe you weren't that far apart to begin with. Unfortunately, your "realistic" solution of partition is not on the agenda. The only realistic solution is a unified federal island under EU jurisdiction. Once you give up your separatist fantasies you might realize this.

If VP is a separatist it is only because you have given him no other choice...The real partitionists are those who insist on the new version of Enosis,namely a unitary state with majority rule...The TCs have not gone through hell and survived all these years to now oblige you by becoming a underthroten,despised and hated minority in their own country...Once you give up your fantasy of dominating and oppressing the TCs,you too might realise a thing or two...

[Nikitas]

Bir,

The highest institutional figure in the RoC, the president himself, said repeatedly that GCs were wrong and committed vile acts against the TCs in the past. So how much more explicit can the recognition of the past be?

On the other hand, the ferocity and desruction of 1974 and the 36 years of partition cannot be seen as commensurate payback for the mistreatment of 1963-1968. Something else is going on. Some of us understand the meaning of statements made by Turkish officials, such as:

"IF the Greeks had accepted our proposals in Geneva we would not have had Attila II and kill 4500 people" Bulent Ecevit.

"What if people leave. We have plenty of people to put there to replace those that leave" Erdoghan reacting to the flight of TCs from the "liberated" north. What do you think he is saying about TCs?

"We got what we wanted without returning an inch of territory or removing a single soldier" Erdoghan at Brikentstok. Is he thinking conquest or "peace operation"?

"Turkey would be involved in CYprus even if there was not a single moslem there" Davutoglu. Does he give a damn about TCs?

I am sure you can see the policy implicit in the above statements. And while I agree with the view that the GCs were at fault in 1963, and yes GCs have a duty to their TC compatriots, I reckon they also have a right to survive on the island. And in view of the above statements, survival in the post 1974 years has been made by Turkish and TC attitudes more important than bicommunal rapprochement.

Judging from the talks it is clear, to me anyway, that the GC side is showing more empathy for the preoccupations of the TC community than the other way round. TCs are happy to identify fully with the policy of Turkey on Cyprus refusing to yield on points that if not as compatriots, then as partners in a future BBF, they should understand, things like the settlers and the granting of nationalities.

The demos last month are no indication of a turnabout by the TCs, but at least they show that some of them see the peril of being victims of the Turkish plan for lebensraum.

[Get Real!]

The real partitionists are those who insist on the new version of Enosis,namely a unitary state with majority rule...The TCs have not gone through hell and survived all these years to now oblige you by becoming a underthroten,despised and hated minority in their own country...Once you give up your fantasy of dominating and oppressing the TCs,you too might realise a thing or two...

Without a pair of knickers on your bum you’ll find that being a minority is the least of your problems!