Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

Viewpoint wrote:
So in effect the GCs cannot back out of a BBF with out the agreement of the TCs?

Kikapu wrote:
I don't see the GCs in trying to get out of BBF, can you.? If anything, I see the TCs in trying to get out of the BBF and into a BBC, as in Confederation from the agreed Federation in BBF. For the GCs, having a True Federation with all the EU Principles will suit them just fine and that is what they will settle for, and in my opinion, the same principles will also do good for the TCs. No matter what options may have been available to determine what BBF may have looked like before 2004, it sure has no options but to apply the EU principles to any BBF settlement as of 2004. The only reason as to why the TCs have not accepted BBF in the form of True Federation, is because they still have their Taksim Dreams alive, which is what's holding them back from having a settlement. So, if anything, it is the TCs who are trying to get out of BBF and not the GCs. As long as BBF is not agreed on based on EU principles, there is no reason for the GCs to try and leave the BBF, and the fact that they cannot leave it without the TCs approval, you are in fact doing them a favour by keeping them in BBF, because they still have the RoC with all it benefits and privileges as long as nothing new is agreed to, whereas the "trnc" doesn't have anything as long as the GCs do not agree to walk away from the BBF, with or without the TCs approval. BBF under EU principles is perhaps 1000 times better for the GCs than the 1960 agreements were, so why would they want to leave the BBF. Does it not tell you why Christofias is pushing for BBF with no time frames while Eroglu is pushing for BBC with time frames. The GCs can continue like this for a long time to give them time to bolster their new found political power within the EU for themselves and also against Turkey's occupation, as well as increasing their economic opportunities with the new found natural resources of the southern coast of Cyprus.

So your answer is yes I am right they cannot walk away from a BBF without our say so, can you kindly tell other GCs.

My answer in a few words is, since you don't like reading explanations to anything but only sound bited, that I don't believe the GCs can walk away from BBF, BUT they sure can ignore it if it does not meet the EU Principles and there's not much you can do about it. Same in reverse with the TCs.

Viewpoint wrote:
can you supply independent evidence of this claim?

Kikapu wrote:
The fact that BBF has been around for the last 30+ years is all the proof you need that neither side can walk away from it without both parties can agree to do so. I'm sure Eroglu would love to dump BBF, but he can't and Christofias is under no obligation to accept anything less than True Federation and the EU Principles for a settlement. He's not even obliged to offer "Rotation Presidency", but he has. You can see what happened to the GCs and the TCs because the GCs did not agree to BBF Annan Plan style. They got the RoC into the EU and continue to prosper economically and Politically and the TCs with the "trnc" got next to nothing. So don't assume that the GCs are in a hurry to dump the BBF by you thinking that the TCs will not let them escape BBF. They are not in a hurry to leave BBF anytime soon, since it will be far better for them than the 1960 agreements. The TCs can't leave it either, whether they want to or not, because the GCs will not agree to it for it to happen, but in the meantime, the TCs can't get anything in return while waiting for a settlement, except Turkey's political and economical rule over the "trnc". It may be time for the TCs to re-evaluate their position on how they can too benefit from BBF, because since 2004, it is a new ball game and the days of the AP is gone for ever. Something to think about if one wants to live in the real world, away from the imaginary one.

So no evidence.

The last 30+ years is the evidence. What more do you want.?

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

Viewpoint wrote:
So in effect the GCs cannot back out of a BBF with out the agreement of the TCs?

Kikapu wrote:
I don't see the GCs in trying to get out of BBF, can you.? If anything, I see the TCs in trying to get out of the BBF and into a BBC, as in Confederation from the agreed Federation in BBF. For the GCs, having a True Federation with all the EU Principles will suit them just fine and that is what they will settle for, and in my opinion, the same principles will also do good for the TCs. No matter what options may have been available to determine what BBF may have looked like before 2004, it sure has no options but to apply the EU principles to any BBF settlement as of 2004. The only reason as to why the TCs have not accepted BBF in the form of True Federation, is because they still have their Taksim Dreams alive, which is what's holding them back from having a settlement. So, if anything, it is the TCs who are trying to get out of BBF and not the GCs. As long as BBF is not agreed on based on EU principles, there is no reason for the GCs to try and leave the BBF, and the fact that they cannot leave it without the TCs approval, you are in fact doing them a favour by keeping them in BBF, because they still have the RoC with all it benefits and privileges as long as nothing new is agreed to, whereas the "trnc" doesn't have anything as long as the GCs do not agree to walk away from the BBF, with or without the TCs approval. BBF under EU principles is perhaps 1000 times better for the GCs than the 1960 agreements were, so why would they want to leave the BBF. Does it not tell you why Christofias is pushing for BBF with no time frames while Eroglu is pushing for BBC with time frames. The GCs can continue like this for a long time to give them time to bolster their new found political power within the EU for themselves and also against Turkey's occupation, as well as increasing their economic opportunities with the new found natural resources of the southern coast of Cyprus.

So your answer is yes I am right they cannot walk away from a BBF without our say so, can you kindly tell other GCs.

My answer in a few words is, since you don't like reading explanations to anything but only sound bited, that I don't believe the GCs can walk away from BBF, BUT they sure can ignore it if it does not meet the EU Principles and there's not much you can do about it. Same in reverse with the TCs.

Viewpoint wrote:
can you supply independent evidence of this claim?

Kikapu wrote:
The fact that BBF has been around for the last 30+ years is all the proof you need that neither side can walk away from it without both parties can agree to do so. I'm sure Eroglu would love to dump BBF, but he can't and Christofias is under no obligation to accept anything less than True Federation and the EU Principles for a settlement. He's not even obliged to offer "Rotation Presidency", but he has. You can see what happened to the GCs and the TCs because the GCs did not agree to BBF Annan Plan style. They got the RoC into the EU and continue to prosper economically and Politically and the TCs with the "trnc" got next to nothing. So don't assume that the GCs are in a hurry to dump the BBF by you thinking that the TCs will not let them escape BBF. They are not in a hurry to leave BBF anytime soon, since it will be far better for them than the 1960 agreements. The TCs can't leave it either, whether they want to or not, because the GCs will not agree to it for it to happen, but in the meantime, the TCs can't get anything in return while waiting for a settlement, except Turkey's political and economical rule over the "trnc". It may be time for the TCs to re-evaluate their position on how they can too benefit from BBF, because since 2004, it is a new ball game and the days of the AP is gone for ever. Something to think about if one wants to live in the real world, away from the imaginary one.

So no evidence.

The last 30+ years is the evidence. What more do you want.?

So I am right on both accounts, thank you for finally acknowledging this fact even though you took the long and unnecessary route..

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

Viewpoint wrote:
So in effect the GCs cannot back out of a BBF with out the agreement of the TCs?

Kikapu wrote:
I don't see the GCs in trying to get out of BBF, can you.? If anything, I see the TCs in trying to get out of the BBF and into a BBC, as in Confederation from the agreed Federation in BBF. For the GCs, having a True Federation with all the EU Principles will suit them just fine and that is what they will settle for, and in my opinion, the same principles will also do good for the TCs. No matter what options may have been available to determine what BBF may have looked like before 2004, it sure has no options but to apply the EU principles to any BBF settlement as of 2004. The only reason as to why the TCs have not accepted BBF in the form of True Federation, is because they still have their Taksim Dreams alive, which is what's holding them back from having a settlement. So, if anything, it is the TCs who are trying to get out of BBF and not the GCs. As long as BBF is not agreed on based on EU principles, there is no reason for the GCs to try and leave the BBF, and the fact that they cannot leave it without the TCs approval, you are in fact doing them a favour by keeping them in BBF, because they still have the RoC with all it benefits and privileges as long as nothing new is agreed to, whereas the "trnc" doesn't have anything as long as the GCs do not agree to walk away from the BBF, with or without the TCs approval. BBF under EU principles is perhaps 1000 times better for the GCs than the 1960 agreements were, so why would they want to leave the BBF. Does it not tell you why Christofias is pushing for BBF with no time frames while Eroglu is pushing for BBC with time frames. The GCs can continue like this for a long time to give them time to bolster their new found political power within the EU for themselves and also against Turkey's occupation, as well as increasing their economic opportunities with the new found natural resources of the southern coast of Cyprus.

So your answer is yes I am right they cannot walk away from a BBF without our say so, can you kindly tell other GCs.

My answer in a few words is, since you don't like reading explanations to anything but only sound bited, that I don't believe the GCs can walk away from BBF, BUT they sure can ignore it if it does not meet the EU Principles and there's not much you can do about it. Same in reverse with the TCs.

Viewpoint wrote:
can you supply independent evidence of this claim?

Kikapu wrote:
The fact that BBF has been around for the last 30+ years is all the proof you need that neither side can walk away from it without both parties can agree to do so. I'm sure Eroglu would love to dump BBF, but he can't and Christofias is under no obligation to accept anything less than True Federation and the EU Principles for a settlement. He's not even obliged to offer "Rotation Presidency", but he has. You can see what happened to the GCs and the TCs because the GCs did not agree to BBF Annan Plan style. They got the RoC into the EU and continue to prosper economically and Politically and the TCs with the "trnc" got next to nothing. So don't assume that the GCs are in a hurry to dump the BBF by you thinking that the TCs will not let them escape BBF. They are not in a hurry to leave BBF anytime soon, since it will be far better for them than the 1960 agreements. The TCs can't leave it either, whether they want to or not, because the GCs will not agree to it for it to happen, but in the meantime, the TCs can't get anything in return while waiting for a settlement, except Turkey's political and economical rule over the "trnc". It may be time for the TCs to re-evaluate their position on how they can too benefit from BBF, because since 2004, it is a new ball game and the days of the AP is gone for ever. Something to think about if one wants to live in the real world, away from the imaginary one.

So no evidence.

The last 30+ years is the evidence. What more do you want.?

So I am right on both accounts, thank you for finally acknowledging this fact even though you took the long and unnecessary route..

So show me where the GCs tried to walk away from BBF. The BBF serves them well, because now they can get True Democracy, Human rights, International Law and the EU Principles that were ALL absent from the 1960 constitution. Without the above principles applied to BBF, the GCs will ignore any offers made that does not include the above principles. Refusal of the Annan Plan makes that point very well, does it not.? Did the GCs lose anything by refusing a BBF that did not have the above principles.? No, they did not. In fact, they had benefited huge amount. What did the TCs get for agreeing to a settlement not based on the above principles.? Do I really need to say it.? No, I don't think I need to. It will only upset you if I did!

And by the way, if you don't like the evidence that I presented as being unsatisfactory, then you cannot take credit for being right about the other.!

[Piratis]

Easy! Wait for the balance of power to change and pounce. But, will the enemy wait or will it heed Piratis's war cry and take pre emptive action?

They will wait because they have no excuse to take any pre emptive action, while we will have every right to liberate our own lands when the balance of power will allow this.

The ROC certainly does have the right to liberate the north from the illegal occupying force but how are you going to do this or do you have a cunning "Baldrick" style plan that you do not wish to divulge?

If you asked the Latvians in say 1975 how they would liberate themselves from USSR do you thin they would have a plan? If you asked the Greeks in 1600 how they would liberate themselves from the Ottomans, do you think they would have a plan?

The balance of power constantly changes. What we should do is be prepared so when it changes we will be able to take advantage of it. Prepared in this case means: Maintaining our rights over the whole island. Maintaining a decent army that can handle the Turkish troops stationed in Cyprus. Create good relationships with other nations with whom we have common interests.

And keep in mind that I never talked about a 1 on 1 war between Cyprus and Turkey.

I am not a future teller, but if you insist on a possible scenario, here it is: Turkey fails to gain access to the EU. It turns to the east and becomes close to Iran and other Islamic countries. Soon after it turns into an Islamic Theocracy itself, and loses the support of the USA. At some point it attempts, along with other Islamic countries, to destroy Israel. Israel, USA and EU cooperate and win the war. Greece and Cyprus played an important part in the war against Turkey. To punish Turkey and ensure that it will never again gain that degree of power, the allies return north Cyprus to RoC, while they divide Turkey by recognizing an independent Kurdish state.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

Viewpoint wrote:
So in effect the GCs cannot back out of a BBF with out the agreement of the TCs?

Kikapu wrote:
I don't see the GCs in trying to get out of BBF, can you.? If anything, I see the TCs in trying to get out of the BBF and into a BBC, as in Confederation from the agreed Federation in BBF. For the GCs, having a True Federation with all the EU Principles will suit them just fine and that is what they will settle for, and in my opinion, the same principles will also do good for the TCs. No matter what options may have been available to determine what BBF may have looked like before 2004, it sure has no options but to apply the EU principles to any BBF settlement as of 2004. The only reason as to why the TCs have not accepted BBF in the form of True Federation, is because they still have their Taksim Dreams alive, which is what's holding them back from having a settlement. So, if anything, it is the TCs who are trying to get out of BBF and not the GCs. As long as BBF is not agreed on based on EU principles, there is no reason for the GCs to try and leave the BBF, and the fact that they cannot leave it without the TCs approval, you are in fact doing them a favour by keeping them in BBF, because they still have the RoC with all it benefits and privileges as long as nothing new is agreed to, whereas the "trnc" doesn't have anything as long as the GCs do not agree to walk away from the BBF, with or without the TCs approval. BBF under EU principles is perhaps 1000 times better for the GCs than the 1960 agreements were, so why would they want to leave the BBF. Does it not tell you why Christofias is pushing for BBF with no time frames while Eroglu is pushing for BBC with time frames. The GCs can continue like this for a long time to give them time to bolster their new found political power within the EU for themselves and also against Turkey's occupation, as well as increasing their economic opportunities with the new found natural resources of the southern coast of Cyprus.

So your answer is yes I am right they cannot walk away from a BBF without our say so, can you kindly tell other GCs.

My answer in a few words is, since you don't like reading explanations to anything but only sound bited, that I don't believe the GCs can walk away from BBF, BUT they sure can ignore it if it does not meet the EU Principles and there's not much you can do about it. Same in reverse with the TCs.

Viewpoint wrote:
can you supply independent evidence of this claim?

Kikapu wrote:
The fact that BBF has been around for the last 30+ years is all the proof you need that neither side can walk away from it without both parties can agree to do so. I'm sure Eroglu would love to dump BBF, but he can't and Christofias is under no obligation to accept anything less than True Federation and the EU Principles for a settlement. He's not even obliged to offer "Rotation Presidency", but he has. You can see what happened to the GCs and the TCs because the GCs did not agree to BBF Annan Plan style. They got the RoC into the EU and continue to prosper economically and Politically and the TCs with the "trnc" got next to nothing. So don't assume that the GCs are in a hurry to dump the BBF by you thinking that the TCs will not let them escape BBF. They are not in a hurry to leave BBF anytime soon, since it will be far better for them than the 1960 agreements. The TCs can't leave it either, whether they want to or not, because the GCs will not agree to it for it to happen, but in the meantime, the TCs can't get anything in return while waiting for a settlement, except Turkey's political and economical rule over the "trnc". It may be time for the TCs to re-evaluate their position on how they can too benefit from BBF, because since 2004, it is a new ball game and the days of the AP is gone for ever. Something to think about if one wants to live in the real world, away from the imaginary one.

So no evidence.

The last 30+ years is the evidence. What more do you want.?

So I am right on both accounts, thank you for finally acknowledging this fact even though you took the long and unnecessary route..

So show me where the GCs tried to walk away from BBF. The BBF serves them well, because now they can get True Democracy, Human rights, International Law and the EU Principles that were ALL absent from the 1960 constitution. Without the above principles applied to BBF, the GCs will ignore any offers made that does not include the above principles. Refusal of the Annan Plan makes that point very well, does it not.? Did the GCs lose anything by refusing a BBF that did not have the above principles.? No, they did not. In fact, they had benefited huge amount. What did the TCs get for agreeing to a settlement not based on the above principles.? Do I really need to say it.? No, I don't think I need to. It will only upset you if I did!

And by the way, if you don't like the evidence that I presented as being unsatisfactory, then you cannot take credit for being right about the other.!

You have a superiority complex get over yourself, we are aonly agreeing that the GCs cannot depart from a BBF without the TCs permission and we have established that your evidence is non existent.

[Jerry]

I am not a future teller, but if you insist on a possible scenario, here it is: Turkey fails to gain access to the EU. It turns to the east and becomes close to Iran and other Islamic countries. Soon after it turns into an Islamic Theocracy itself, and loses the support of the USA. At some point it attempts, along with other Islamic countries, to destroy Israel. Israel, USA and EU cooperate and win the war. Greece and Cyprus played an important part in the war against Turkey. To punish Turkey and ensure that it will never again gain that degree of power, the allies return north Cyprus to RoC, while they divide Turkey by recognizing an independent Kurdish state.

I have always taken your posts seriously Piratis - up to now.
Here's three more scenarios for you: -

The US, without EU consent, permits Turkey to take the rest of the island in exchange for "everlasting loyalty"

In 50 years time, following defeat of the islamists, Turkey is "gifted" Cyprus by the greatlful US. (it could be China by then)

Turkey provokes the ROC into defending itself, wins the war and kicks all of the GCs off the island.

The list is endless, but like you I'm not being serious.

Do you honestly believe that in another 2-3 generations GCs will be as passionate about returning to the north as they are today? Most of my generation will not be here in 20 years time, their grandchildren will have little or no interest in solving the Cyprus problem or claiming back what is theirs.

[Bananiot]

Piratis has totally gone plonkers. Might as well hope for a meteorite to drop onto Turkey, it is a more likely scenario ...

[Get Real!]

...we are aonly agreeing that the GCs cannot depart from a BBF without the TCs permission

Ever heard of “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away!” ?

Well go back and replace “Lord” with “Makarios”!

[Viewpoint]

...we are aonly agreeing that the GCs cannot depart from a BBF without the TCs permission

Ever heard of “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away!” ?

Well go back and replace “Lord” with “Makarios”!

hes in hell thank god.

[Get Real!]

Piratis has totally gone plonkers. Might as well hope for a meteorite to drop onto Turkey, it is a more likely scenario ...

Actually, it was a good prediction of what's to come until he threw in an attack on Israel!

What Piratis may not be aware of is that Turkey need only continue down her current path to complete her fallout and ultimate destruction by the West, without even touching Israel.