Cyprus-Forum.com

[kurupetos]

Ethnic cleansing is the only viable solution.

Better yet, Kurupetos, how about a BBF composed of three states? One for "Turkish Cypriots," one for "Greek Cypriots," and one for "Cypriots." This way you won't have to "extricate" or "annihilate" anyone; it's all-inclusive! ... Aaaaand it will throw another state into the Upper Chamber mix thereby mitigating the the power of the V.P. as the President of the Upper Chamber. Hmmm?

Don't be ridiculous. Turkey has been ethnically cleansing the TCs for years. Once her job is finished we'll take over with WMD.

[Kikapu]

It means this!:D



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

Hi, Kikapu,

It's workable but with one concern: the functions of the Vice President. Your link states that the V.P. is merely a figurehead under the U.S. Constitution, but this is not so. He may have no standing executive power, but as President of the Sentate, he may wield some power. Consider the following:

Under the U.S. Constitution, legislation may be introduced in either Chamber. The President may veto legislation after it passes both Chambers. He must provide both Chambers with his objections in writing. The veto may be overriden by a two-thirds majority of the Lower Chamber. On the other hand, the V.P., who presides over the Upper Chamber (and there's a bit of power there, but that's beside my point), can vote but only to break a tie (and there's a bit of power here too) in the Upper Chamber, no questions asked, no provision for written explanation. This is where the V.P. of CY could wield some unchecked power that underscores the ethnic divide since both states send the same number of representatives to the Upper Chamber. The concept of equal representation to the Upper Chamber is effective in the U.S. where there are 50 states, but would not be so in CY where only 2 ethnically divided states are proposed, one more heavily populated than the other. In effect, under such circumstances in Cyprus, the V.P. could wield more power than the President, particularly if the legislation is introduced in the lower chamber.

In practice, when the V.P. is an ethnic Turk, s/he could shut down the majority in favor his/her minority. When s/he is an ethnic Greek, s/he could shut down the minority in favor his/her majority. When considering the principle of "majority rule, minority rights," what are the ramifications? The balance lies in a strong federal constitution that addresses this issue coupled with a fair-minded and prudent supreme judiciary, and I don't know that the American way of appointing the supreme judiciary would be the best way for CY for the same reasons listed above. As I'm sure you know, the process involves Presidential appointment with Upper Chamber confirmation. Again, the Vice President as President of the Upper Chamber has the power to break the tie. What works as a form of checks and balances in the U.S. may become a vicious circle in CY all because of the ethnic divide.

Hi Filitsa,

What you say is true and I have also made the same provisions in my plan of the VP's role !

To vote on a bill

The upper house is where the power is 50-50 between the north and south state. If the bill is not what the TC’s want, this is where they can block it from passing, if the Vice President is a TC, because the Vice President gets to vote only if there is a tie, and if the bill is tied at 5 v 5, then the TC vice President can break the tie by voting NO on the bill and that will be the end of it unless the Upper House can make some changes to please the other sides concerns, and if that is done, it will be sent to the Lower House to be voted on once again , and if passed there, then it will go to the President to sign it. If the Vice President was a GC and casts the tie breaking vote to a YES vote, then the President would be a TC, in which case, he would not sign it into law and the bill will just fail to materialize. If a bill does pass both the Houses and the President refuses to sign it, then the Upper House can overturn the President’s veto by having 6 out of 10 voting to over rule the President and the bill will go forward. In this round of voting, the Vice President will NOT be voting. This is where the main “safeguards” for the TC’s are protected without ever needing a veto vote power.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21685

[georgios100]

I'd like to hear from YOU what BBF means for you? Given that we are planning bicommunal marches thanks

BBF would be two distinct sociaties, along with other minorities sharing the island having the RoC as a vehicle of representation in the face of the world, free of armies, military bases c/w freedom of religion, speech and all human rights respected by all.

[Filitsa]

Ethnic cleansing is the only viable solution.

Better yet, Kurupetos, how about a BBF composed of three states? One for "Turkish Cypriots," one for "Greek Cypriots," and one for "Cypriots." This way you won't have to "extricate" or "annihilate" anyone; it's all-inclusive! ... Aaaaand it will throw another state into the Upper Chamber mix thereby mitigating the the power of the V.P. as the President of the Upper Chamber. Hmmm?

Don't be ridiculous. Turkey has been ethnically cleansing the TCs for years. Once her job is finished we'll take over with WMD.

Perhaps the better word is adulterating. ... And if she's adulterating Turkish Cypriots, then she's adulterating Cyprus, so forget the WMD. They still have 40,000 troops. Do you want a Planet of the Apes in Cyprus?

[Filitsa]

Here's a hypothetical, Kikapu:

TC President ... GC V.P. ... TC sponsored bill originates in the Upper Chamber .... GC V.P. breaks the tie and kills the bill ... same TC sponsored bill re-introduced in the Lower Chamber this time. Chances are it will be killed there too because the GC's are in the majority. Now what?

[Kikapu]

Here's a hypothetical, Kikapu:

TC President ... GC V.P. ... TC sponsored bill originates in the Upper Chamber .... GC V.P. breaks the tie and kills the bill ... same TC sponsored bill re-introduced in the Lower Chamber this time. Chances are it will be killed there too because the GC's are in the majority. Now what?

In your hypothetical, Filitsa, the bill will just die if compromises are not reached to change the bill in the lower house and then back at the upper house. This is where "horse trading" comes into play.

All bills need to pass both the lower and the upper house to become law, once the President signs it, of course or if the President refuses to sign the bill which have a majority of 6-5 upper house including the VP's vote as a tie-breaker, then the upper house can invoke "cloture" clause at three-fifths of 10 senators, which will be 6 votes. 6 senate votes can override the President's veto as long as the same bill has a majority vote in the lower house. The VP cannot vote to make the 6 votes needed in the upper house when invoking the "cloture" clause vote.

This way, despite the TCs will be a minority in the lower house, the majority GCs will not be able to get a bill through in the upper house unless the TCs also approve it, regardless whether the TC is a President or a vice President. This is the built in veto power that the TCs will have and also their safeguard against being politically pushed aside. The important thing to remember however, that these upper seats (and lower house seats) are not given to the TCs and the GCs as an entitlement, but rather it is given to each state, the north and the south. The senators will need to be elected by those living within those states, is the reason why the north state needs to reduce it's territorial size in order to have the most number of TCs in the north state to maintain an overwhelming majority TCs, so that all elections are Democratically held, but will favour the TCs in the north for them to elect 5 TC senators all the same and the GCs will do the same in the south. Without this arrangement, there will not be any incentive for the TCs to give any land back to become part of the south state which would place many of the displaced GC refugees in the south, which would actually benefit the TCs to maintain a majority in the north.

[humanist]

Good morning from Australia and thank you for discussing what your views are for a BBF. We have heard from a list of people all with different ideas.

Piratis do you think we can increase the 12% to say 18% which is a number that has been used used for decades. You have not also given any examples of the composition of the governments in each State and I would like to hear what you come up with on this matter of governance for each State.

Someone on the forum suggested north and south States, elections to be held all over Cyprus to choose candidates with most votes.

My view is that each State has to have 3% of the parliament seats to be held by members of minority groups.

My view is also one person one vote and everybody has the right to run as governors of their respective Sate as well as Presidency.

I also challenge you views where you stated one State run by Tc's the other by other Cypriots. I think that in both States there should be representation by both communities as well as the 3% parliament seats from other minorities.

I would also like to see a forced amalgamation of parties in the whole Island for example AKEL and its equivalent in the 'trnc" or north State therefore people wanting to vote for communist arty. This could also mean that we may end up with a black man running the country because he happens to be an AKELISTA with a Greek Cypriot mother and a Nigerian father who was born in Cyprus (far fetched example I know).

I would also see that those GC's refugees who return to the north and possibly outnumber TC's to be able to run for government also and vsv.

What do people think the composition of the Federal government ought to be. Do we revert to the numbers and system of the current Constitution or do change this. Or do we unite under the current Consitution immediately with view os setting up the rest within the next two years and then we have population movements in 7 years?

[Get Real!]

Andreas, scoundrels DREAM of states occupied by citizens like you…

[humanist]

like me? please explain

[Viewpoint]

Filista beware Kikapusis plan is a trap, in time it can be eroded and the Gcs can take full power pushinh aside any Tcs effective say in their own future.