Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

No, I expected you to respect the democratic wishes of the majority long before that, so that an armed struggle would not be necessary.

Terrorists are those who invaded and occupied our lands, and killed women, children and anybody who disputed their authority over our island. When the native people of a territory fight against foreign occupiers this is called a revolution. So get your terms right.

Yeah yeah...Someone's freedom fighter is another one's terrorist,dear Piratis...It is all very subjective...Nobody was talking about democracy and human rights at the time...You were crying for Enosis with Greece,and we were countering that with cries of Taksim...How and where do you expect democracy to come into it????

Very simple Bir: Make a referendum and ask from people to democratically, one person one vote, choose what they want to do with their own island. That is how democracy comes into it, and if you allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island then there would be no conflict and no casualties.

Everything is simple when you are in the majority...If you made a referandum and asked the TCs whether they wanted to join Greece at the time,what do you think the results would be...???Did we have no right to self-determination??? What gave you the right to try to force your own wishes on us,as you did till the coup against Makarios in 74 brought you undone???? If you had any sense you'd have known exactly what Enosis meant for the TCs...But you were drunk on your 'majority' and thought you can terrorise you minority into submission...The writing was on the wall...You just didnt stop long enough to read it...Crying about democracy and human rights now,after 50 years,is simply too late...The time to think about human rights were back in the 50s and 60s...You tried to impose your idea of'democracy' without any thought of others' human rights...And paid the price...

In a democracy who rules is the majority. It is the principle known as "Majority Rule". Do you know any democratic country that make a referendum for each ethnic minority separately? Does Turkey ask the Greek or the Kurdish minority separately in order to decide something?

Being part of Greece would not violate your human rights. The same way we were part of Ottoman or British empires, we would be part of the Greek state, with the difference that this would be our democratic choice and we would be equal citizens, as opposed to have some foreign empire forced on us against our will and being their subjects.

You have acted criminally and with no respect to the rights of the people of this island. We wanted to rule our island democratically (majority rule) but who choose to continue to impose your will by force on our island as you did from the day you set your foot on our island. We gave you the chance to integrate with us and be equal Cypriots, you blew it. Therefore you remain a foreign enemy of Cyprus, and the Cyprus Problem will be solved when the enemies of the Cypriot people are defeated. You are the one who is going to pay the price of disrespecting the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people. If you thought that this war is over and that you won it you are very mistaken.

[BirKibrisli]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

It was a 'Peace' op yegen. Murder us then say RIPeace - I think at the bottom of a well.

Or let's walk out of Parliament due to the Makarios 3 point plan and then get the TMT to kill a few prominent TCs and blow up some mosques in order to get the TCs into enclaves. Violence was your end game was it not?

To start with there were 13 points...The TCs had no choice but abandon Parliament because their lives could not be guaranteed...At the time sick people (TCs) were disappearing from hospitals,killed and trown into wells...Bus loads of TCs were disappearing from the roads,killed and thrown into wells...Who are you kiidding with your revisionist shit????

Misprint! It was a 13 point plan.

Did all these killings occur before or after the 13 point plan and who initiated the violence to begin with?

The hospital killings happened after the 13 points were forced down TC throats,and at the same time as the TCs leaving the government...In December 63 the troubles started with the killing of a Turkish woman by GC police in Nicosia.following GC police opening fire and wounding students from Nicosia Turkish Lycee (the school I was to graduate from some years later!)...

Thank you! I rest my case! (the end game was violence and partition!)

Now, when did the TMT bomb the Turkish Embassy and when did they start to bomb TC mosques and execute Leftist TCs?

And how many hospital killing were there?

The end game was violence and partition all right...Are you going to blame that on the minority TC community????

Lets not get into who did what when,as we will end up getting back to 1571,and there is not much point in that ,is there???

In one hospital alone there were 27 patience killed ,from memory!
Killing of TCs in Nicosia hospital..google it...

No to this on BIR : 21 tc bodies was recoved from nicosia by the red cross to the hospital and then to Ayios vasilios Martin Packard


there is another one :
2. Geunyeli Incident. In a notorious incident, on 12 June 1958 at the height of inter-communal friction ahead of the Macmillan Plan and following a TMT escalation of sectarian violence, British troops punished 35 unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians by obliging them to walk home cross-country past the Turkish Cypriot village of Geunyeli. There they were set upon by Turkish Cypriots; eight of them were murdered and five seriously injured

Thanks,quattro...I am aware of the Gonyeli incident...It is shameful...This is not an excuse,but I believe the TCs were under the impression that the EOKA was about to attack...They were ready and waiting...I'd like to think that it wasn't the British who spread the rumour about an imminent EOKA attack..But why else would the British leave the GCs where they did....???

[BirKibrisli]

Technically you might be right,they might be allowed to call themselves Turkish amongst themselves,and behind close doors...But what is the use if the whole world sees them as Muslims living in Greece...???

They can call themselves whatever they like, and they do. What they cannot do is form "Turkish" organizations that supposedly represent the minority as a whole. You see, only 50% of the muslim minority is Turkish, and our beloved neighbor does everything it can to assimilate the other half. Funny isn't it, Turks don't respect others' minority rights even within a minority of their own...

And is it not true that they are not allowed to chose their religious leaders in any case? The Greek state appoints the Imams for them...Am I wrong???

See my previous post

Let me get this straight...They cannot form organisations with 'Turkish' in its title,even if they only want to represent those who happen to be of Turkish origin...Bravo...Very democratic and totally complies with their human rights....

Thank God you finally got it straight. So now you do understand they are not denied to call themselves whatever they like, they are only not allowed to misrepresent the whole minority under a Turkish label. If it annoys you you can blame Turkey, who is using the Thrace minority for her own interests, much like she does with the TC minority

So no comments on the Muftis issue you so persistently asked me to comment on?

Yeah,lets blame Turkey for everything while we are at it...I am sure she had something to do with Greece's economic voes as well...

What do you want me to say about the Muftis???It seems to be tit for tat...
And you seem to think there 's nothing wrong with it...

[BirKibrisli]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

No, I expected you to respect the democratic wishes of the majority long before that, so that an armed struggle would not be necessary.

Terrorists are those who invaded and occupied our lands, and killed women, children and anybody who disputed their authority over our island. When the native people of a territory fight against foreign occupiers this is called a revolution. So get your terms right.

Yeah yeah...Someone's freedom fighter is another one's terrorist,dear Piratis...It is all very subjective...Nobody was talking about democracy and human rights at the time...You were crying for Enosis with Greece,and we were countering that with cries of Taksim...How and where do you expect democracy to come into it????

Very simple Bir: Make a referendum and ask from people to democratically, one person one vote, choose what they want to do with their own island. That is how democracy comes into it, and if you allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island then there would be no conflict and no casualties.

Everything is simple when you are in the majority...If you made a referandum and asked the TCs whether they wanted to join Greece at the time,what do you think the results would be...???Did we have no right to self-determination??? What gave you the right to try to force your own wishes on us,as you did till the coup against Makarios in 74 brought you undone???? If you had any sense you'd have known exactly what Enosis meant for the TCs...But you were drunk on your 'majority' and thought you can terrorise you minority into submission...The writing was on the wall...You just didnt stop long enough to read it...Crying about democracy and human rights now,after 50 years,is simply too late...The time to think about human rights were back in the 50s and 60s...You tried to impose your idea of'democracy' without any thought of others' human rights...And paid the price...

In a democracy who rules is the majority. It is the principle known as "Majority Rule". Do you know any democratic country that make a referendum for each ethnic minority separately? Does Turkey ask the Greek or the Kurdish minority separately in order to decide something?

Being part of Greece would not violate your human rights. The same way we were part of Ottoman or British empires, we would be part of the Greek state, with the difference that this would be our democratic choice and we would be equal citizens, as opposed to have some foreign empire forced on us against our will and being their subjects.

You have acted criminally and with no respect to the rights of the people of this island. We wanted to rule our island democratically (majority rule) but who choose to continue to impose your will by force on our island as you did from the day you set your foot on our island. We gave you the chance to integrate with us and be equal Cypriots, you blew it. Therefore you remain a foreign enemy of Cyprus, and the Cyprus Problem will be solved when the enemies of the Cypriot people are defeated. You are the one who is going to pay the price of disrespecting the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people. If you thought that this war is over and that you won it you are very mistaken.

You are truly deluded,Piratis...
You didnt give us the chance to integrate with you and be equal Cypriots,you tried to force us to assimilate with you and become 'equal' Greeks...

It obviously gives you great comfort to believe what you believe in,so keep on believing it...You will have another thing coming if you try to force anything down our throats again...That is a friendly warning...

[Piratis]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

No, I expected you to respect the democratic wishes of the majority long before that, so that an armed struggle would not be necessary.

Terrorists are those who invaded and occupied our lands, and killed women, children and anybody who disputed their authority over our island. When the native people of a territory fight against foreign occupiers this is called a revolution. So get your terms right.

Yeah yeah...Someone's freedom fighter is another one's terrorist,dear Piratis...It is all very subjective...Nobody was talking about democracy and human rights at the time...You were crying for Enosis with Greece,and we were countering that with cries of Taksim...How and where do you expect democracy to come into it????

Very simple Bir: Make a referendum and ask from people to democratically, one person one vote, choose what they want to do with their own island. That is how democracy comes into it, and if you allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island then there would be no conflict and no casualties.

Everything is simple when you are in the majority...If you made a referandum and asked the TCs whether they wanted to join Greece at the time,what do you think the results would be...???Did we have no right to self-determination??? What gave you the right to try to force your own wishes on us,as you did till the coup against Makarios in 74 brought you undone???? If you had any sense you'd have known exactly what Enosis meant for the TCs...But you were drunk on your 'majority' and thought you can terrorise you minority into submission...The writing was on the wall...You just didnt stop long enough to read it...Crying about democracy and human rights now,after 50 years,is simply too late...The time to think about human rights were back in the 50s and 60s...You tried to impose your idea of'democracy' without any thought of others' human rights...And paid the price...

In a democracy who rules is the majority. It is the principle known as "Majority Rule". Do you know any democratic country that make a referendum for each ethnic minority separately? Does Turkey ask the Greek or the Kurdish minority separately in order to decide something?

Being part of Greece would not violate your human rights. The same way we were part of Ottoman or British empires, we would be part of the Greek state, with the difference that this would be our democratic choice and we would be equal citizens, as opposed to have some foreign empire forced on us against our will and being their subjects.

You have acted criminally and with no respect to the rights of the people of this island. We wanted to rule our island democratically (majority rule) but who choose to continue to impose your will by force on our island as you did from the day you set your foot on our island. We gave you the chance to integrate with us and be equal Cypriots, you blew it. Therefore you remain a foreign enemy of Cyprus, and the Cyprus Problem will be solved when the enemies of the Cypriot people are defeated. You are the one who is going to pay the price of disrespecting the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people. If you thought that this war is over and that you won it you are very mistaken.

You are truly deluded,Piratis...
You didnt give us the chance to integrate with you and be equal Cypriots,you tried to force us to assimilate with you and become 'equal' Greeks...

It obviously gives you great comfort to believe what you believe in,so keep on believing it...You will have another thing coming if you try to force anything down our throats again...That is a friendly warning...

Nothing was forced down your throats. You are the ones who invaded our island and forced yourselves down ours. If you can not integrate then you will be send back to where you came from and where you will fit better ... That is a friendly warning.

[Kikapu]

[quattro]

Just right kiks round and round for so many years thats why we seem so dizzy

[Piratis]

Just right kiks round and round for so many years thats why we seem so dizzy

In order for this "round and round" to stop there should be a mechanism to take a decision, since it is impossible for everybody to agree (even on simple things).

In all normal successful countries this mechanism is called democracy. Unfortunately some do not accept democracy, and they want to keep Cyprus in the middle ages, so they can continue to undemocratically impose their own will on Cyprus.

[Kikapu]

Just right kiks round and round for so many years thats why we seem so dizzy

In order for this "round and round" to stop there should be a mechanism to take a decision, since it is impossible for everybody to agree (even on simple things).

In all normal successful countries this mechanism is called democracy. Unfortunately some do not accept democracy, and they want to keep Cyprus in the middle ages, so they can continue to undemocratically impose their own will on Cyprus.

The problem is, Piratis, Cyprus for ALL Cypriots never had a Democracy before, and for some, that suited them just fine and want to continue still today without Democracy. These people need to be told that from here on, the only way Cyprus is going to exist and move forward with ALL Cypriots living in Cyprus, is with a Democracy. As of 2004, there can no longer be any acceptance of a non Democratic Cyprus. Those who do not want to take part in Democracy will have just two options,

a) leave Cyprus for other destinations in the world

b) stay in a Democratic Cyprus as an equal citizen

This is what you should all be talking about rather than going back in time. Regardless of what has happened in the past, there are really only two choices left for ALL Cypriots as described above.

[Afroasiatis]

Restrictions is different from oppression. They just restrict the Turkish minority there so they will not get the power to do the crimes they did in Cyprus.

Constantinople, Thesaloniki and the major cities in the western coast of Asia Minor where Greek cities that were occupied by the Ottomans. So stop confusing Liberation with Expansionism.

This restriction/oppression and liberation/expansionism debates remind me on the ones e.g. on intervention/invasion, terrorists/freedom fighters. There is no objective reality in this, it's just a matter of perspective. It's better to keep to the essence than debate on terminology - except of course if you can explain me why there is a difference.

Regarding restriction/oppression, I already said that similar arguments are used from the other side too.

Constantinople, Thessaloniki, Western Thrace were places in which Greeks were a minority before greek troops arrived. Who founded the cities in a very distant past is irrelevant - otherwise Greece would have a similar claim on Marseilles or Kabul.
In Smyrna/Izmir Greeks were indeed a majority or at least plurality. However, the same didn't apply to the land surrounding it, and certainly not for the total area which the greek army tried to control. In general, Greeks were in Asia Minor a minority not larger than what the TCs are in Cyprus.