Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

Technically you might be right,they might be allowed to call themselves Turkish amongst themselves,and behind close doors...But what is the use if the whole world sees them as Muslims living in Greece...???

They can call themselves whatever they like, and they do. What they cannot do is form "Turkish" organizations that supposedly represent the minority as a whole. You see, only 50% of the muslim minority is Turkish, and our beloved neighbor does everything it can to assimilate the other half. Funny isn't it, Turks don't respect others' minority rights even within a minority of their own...

And is it not true that they are not allowed to chose their religious leaders in any case? The Greek state appoints the Imams for them...Am I wrong???

See my previous post

[Paphitis]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

Was that proven false or not? Answer this and then I will reply to your last post

Well and truly proven false!

I know it and you know it, but does (s)he?

according to a greek website but even then with cleveats

That's the official website of the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs!

You can't get anymore credible than that!

[Piratis]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

No, I expected you to respect the democratic wishes of the majority long before that, so that an armed struggle would not be necessary.

Terrorists are those who invaded and occupied our lands, and killed women, children and anybody who disputed their authority over our island. When the native people of a territory fight against foreign occupiers this is called a revolution. So get your terms right.

Yeah yeah...Someone's freedom fighter is another one's terrorist,dear Piratis...It is all very subjective...Nobody was talking about democracy and human rights at the time...You were crying for Enosis with Greece,and we were countering that with cries of Taksim...How and where do you expect democracy to come into it????

Very simple Bir: Make a referendum and ask from people to democratically, one person one vote, choose what they want to do with their own island. That is how democracy comes into it, and if you allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island then there would be no conflict and no casualties.

[Afroasiatis]

The way is simple: The British would offer to TCs more than we could possibly offer. It would be very easy for the UK and Turkey to offer to the TCs as much gains on our expense as they wanted. On the other hand there was a limit on how much we could offer to the TCs in order to keep them in our side.

Lets put it this way: We are both biding for an item, and you are biding for it with your own money, while I am bidding for it with money taken from you by force. Who is going to win the bid?

If it was just a matter of offering more gains, the colonial powers would have managed to keep most of their colonies. This is what they have been doing for years, offering privileges to sections of the indigenous people in order to keep them in their side, but it didn't work that well for them at the end, since many turned against them finally.

At that times, there was a will for national independence and freedom from colonialism all over the colonized world. The TCs would certainly not be indifferent to it, provided this would really mean independence and freedom for them.

Similarly an even bigger part of the Greek community in Asia Minor fled before the population exchange.

What didn't happen to the Turks that remained in Greece is that they didn't become "casualties" and all the other exaggerations that TCs use to excuse their crimes in Cyprus. Compared to how Turkey treated the Greeks under her control (in Turkey and north Cyprus) the Turks in Greece were in a far far better position, and they would have been in an even better one if Turkey was not so aggressive against the Greek populations (Greece did not respond in kind to the Turkish aggression).

Also, the TCs in Cyprus today are less than what they were in 1960 or 1974. If Cyprus was united with Greece without any conflict between GCs and TCs, then not only TCs would not become "casualties" but on the contrary their population would be more than what it is today.

How does the treatment of Greeks in Turkey make the bad treatment of Muslims in Greece any better? Even if we assumed that the greek state oppressed its Muslim population just for the sake of taking revenge (and it's not like that, there are much more serious reasons than this), doesn't this mean that something like that could happen to TCs as well in case of Enosis? That they would have to suffer from oppression, whenever Turkey oppressed its greek population, something which wouldn't depend on them and on which they could have no influence? How do you expect the TCs accepting that?

There is no any "oppression" of the Greek state against the Muslims. Any possible restrictions are because they saw how Turkey uses her minorities to expand itself, and they didn't want to allow this to happen in Greece as well.

Don't blame Greece because it tries to protect itself from the expansionism and aggression of Turkey.

I think it's not really that important if we use the term "oppression" or "restrictions", what matters is the essence, isn't it? And the essence is that Muslims in Greece have suffered over the years many restrictions/oppression, and it's normal that TCs would reject being put in a similar position as long as they had the power to fight against it.

Oppression/restriction against minorities is in many cases justified by the states using the argument of expansionism/aggression of neighbors. After all, didn't Turkey use similar arguments even for the Armenian Genocide? And from the other side, didn't most of the states indeed use their minorities abroad to justify their expansionism? Didn't Greece do that in case of the greek minorities in Thessaloniki, in Western Thrace, in Istanbul or in Asia Minor?


@ To the rest of greek-speakers here

I get an impression that some here are doubting the fact that Greece places restrictions in Muslim groups who want to call themselves turkish. Here's an article in greek, reporting about the recent convictions of Greece from European Human Rights Court because of this issue:

http://archive.enet.gr/online/online_te ... 8,79590000

[Piratis]

The way is simple: The British would offer to TCs more than we could possibly offer. It would be very easy for the UK and Turkey to offer to the TCs as much gains on our expense as they wanted. On the other hand there was a limit on how much we could offer to the TCs in order to keep them in our side.

Lets put it this way: We are both biding for an item, and you are biding for it with your own money, while I am bidding for it with money taken from you by force. Who is going to win the bid?

If it was just a matter of offering more gains, the colonial powers would have managed to keep most of their colonies. This is what they have been doing for years, offering privileges to sections of the indigenous people in order to keep them in their side, but it didn't work that well for them at the end, since many turned against them finally.

At that times, there was a will for national independence and freedom from colonialism all over the colonized world. The TCs would certainly not be indifferent to it, provided this would really mean independence and freedom for them.

I disagree. The TCs have shown their greediness time and time again.

Similarly an even bigger part of the Greek community in Asia Minor fled before the population exchange.

What didn't happen to the Turks that remained in Greece is that they didn't become "casualties" and all the other exaggerations that TCs use to excuse their crimes in Cyprus. Compared to how Turkey treated the Greeks under her control (in Turkey and north Cyprus) the Turks in Greece were in a far far better position, and they would have been in an even better one if Turkey was not so aggressive against the Greek populations (Greece did not respond in kind to the Turkish aggression).

Also, the TCs in Cyprus today are less than what they were in 1960 or 1974. If Cyprus was united with Greece without any conflict between GCs and TCs, then not only TCs would not become "casualties" but on the contrary their population would be more than what it is today.

How does the treatment of Greeks in Turkey make the bad treatment of Muslims in Greece any better? Even if we assumed that the greek state oppressed its Muslim population just for the sake of taking revenge (and it's not like that, there are much more serious reasons than this), doesn't this mean that something like that could happen to TCs as well in case of Enosis? That they would have to suffer from oppression, whenever Turkey oppressed its greek population, something which wouldn't depend on them and on which they could have no influence? How do you expect the TCs accepting that?

There is no any "oppression" of the Greek state against the Muslims. Any possible restrictions are because they saw how Turkey uses her minorities to expand itself, and they didn't want to allow this to happen in Greece as well.

Don't blame Greece because it tries to protect itself from the expansionism and aggression of Turkey.

I think it's not really that important if we use the term "oppression" or "restrictions", what matters is the essence, isn't it? And the essence is that Muslims in Greece have suffered over the years many restrictions/oppression, and it's normal that TCs would reject being put in a similar position as long as they had the power to fight against it.

Oppression/restriction against minorities is in many cases justified by the states using the argument of expansionism/aggression of neighbors. After all, didn't Turkey use similar arguments even for the Armenian Genocide? And from the other side, didn't most of the states indeed use their minorities abroad to justify their expansionism? Didn't Greece do that in case of the greek minorities in Thessaloniki, in Western Thrace, in Istanbul or in Asia Minor?


@ To the rest of greek-speakers here

I get an impression that some here are doubting the fact that Greece places restrictions in Muslim groups who want to call themselves turkish. Here's an article in greek, reporting about the recent convictions of Greece from European Human Rights Court because of this issue:

http://archive.enet.gr/online/online_te ... 8,79590000

Restrictions is different from oppression. They just restrict the Turkish minority there so they will not get the power to do the crimes they did in Cyprus.

Constantinople, Thesaloniki and the major cities in the western coast of Asia Minor where Greek cities that were occupied by the Ottomans. So stop confusing Liberation with Expansionism.

[BirKibrisli]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

It was a 'Peace' op yegen. Murder us then say RIPeace - I think at the bottom of a well.

Or let's walk out of Parliament due to the Makarios 3 point plan and then get the TMT to kill a few prominent TCs and blow up some mosques in order to get the TCs into enclaves. Violence was your end game was it not?

To start with there were 13 points...The TCs had no choice but abandon Parliament because their lives could not be guaranteed...At the time sick people (TCs) were disappearing from hospitals,killed and trown into wells...Bus loads of TCs were disappearing from the roads,killed and thrown into wells...Who are you kiidding with your revisionist shit????

Misprint! It was a 13 point plan.

Did all these killings occur before or after the 13 point plan and who initiated the violence to begin with?

The hospital killings happened after the 13 points were forced down TC throats,and at the same time as the TCs leaving the government...In December 63 the troubles started with the killing of a Turkish woman by GC police in Nicosia.following GC police opening fire and wounding students from Nicosia Turkish Lycee (the school I was to graduate from some years later!)...

Thank you! I rest my case! (the end game was violence and partition!)

Now, when did the TMT bomb the Turkish Embassy and when did they start to bomb TC mosques and execute Leftist TCs?

And how many hospital killing were there?

The end game was violence and partition all right...Are you going to blame that on the minority TC community????

Lets not get into who did what when,as we will end up getting back to 1571,and there is not much point in that ,is there???

In one hospital alone there were 27 patience killed ,from memory!
Killing of TCs in Nicosia hospital..google it...

[BirKibrisli]

Technically you might be right,they might be allowed to call themselves Turkish amongst themselves,and behind close doors...But what is the use if the whole world sees them as Muslims living in Greece...???

They can call themselves whatever they like, and they do. What they cannot do is form "Turkish" organizations that supposedly represent the minority as a whole. You see, only 50% of the muslim minority is Turkish, and our beloved neighbor does everything it can to assimilate the other half. Funny isn't it, Turks don't respect others' minority rights even within a minority of their own...

And is it not true that they are not allowed to chose their religious leaders in any case? The Greek state appoints the Imams for them...Am I wrong???

See my previous post

Let me get this straight...They cannot form organisations with 'Turkish' in its title,even if they only want to represent those who happen to be of Turkish origin...Bravo...Very democratic and totally complies with their human rights....

[BirKibrisli]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

No, I expected you to respect the democratic wishes of the majority long before that, so that an armed struggle would not be necessary.

Terrorists are those who invaded and occupied our lands, and killed women, children and anybody who disputed their authority over our island. When the native people of a territory fight against foreign occupiers this is called a revolution. So get your terms right.

Yeah yeah...Someone's freedom fighter is another one's terrorist,dear Piratis...It is all very subjective...Nobody was talking about democracy and human rights at the time...You were crying for Enosis with Greece,and we were countering that with cries of Taksim...How and where do you expect democracy to come into it????

Very simple Bir: Make a referendum and ask from people to democratically, one person one vote, choose what they want to do with their own island. That is how democracy comes into it, and if you allowed the Cypriot people to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of their own island then there would be no conflict and no casualties.

Everything is simple when you are in the majority...If you made a referandum and asked the TCs whether they wanted to join Greece at the time,what do you think the results would be...???Did we have no right to self-determination??? What gave you the right to try to force your own wishes on us,as you did till the coup against Makarios in 74 brought you undone???? If you had any sense you'd have known exactly what Enosis meant for the TCs...But you were drunk on your 'majority' and thought you can terrorise you minority into submission...The writing was on the wall...You just didnt stop long enough to read it...Crying about democracy and human rights now,after 50 years,is simply too late...The time to think about human rights were back in the 50s and 60s...You tried to impose your idea of'democracy' without any thought of others' human rights...And paid the price...

[quattro]

One example, not allowed to call themselves Turkish?

They are called Muslim which is what was agreed between Greece and Turkey with the 1923 treaty (because not all of them are Turkish).

Turkey has grossly violated that Treaty and Greeks in Turkey have almost been eliminated since then, and you expect from Greece to give even more than what the treaty required?

Also please note that what Bir claimed was that 120.000 TCs would become casualties in case Cyprus united with Greece. What I pointed out is that this was a gross exaggeration. Sure, maybe there would be a few problems but those problems would not be anything even remotely close to such gross exaggerations and any problems would also be less than the problems created to all Cypriots, including the TCs, as a result of TCs choosing conflict instead of respecting the democratic wishes of the majority of the population.

Furthermore, if Turkey didn't have have such an expansionist and aggressive policy against the Greeks, then Greece and Turkey would be on friendly terms by the 50s and especially by now, and the Greek population in Turkey and the Turkish population in Greece wouldn't have any problem whatsoever.

You have no idea how laughable your arguments are,Piratis...
You expect the TCs to 'respect the democratic wishes of the majority' at a time when armed terrorists belonging to that majority were going around killing men ,women and children,civilians and military alike,in the most undemocratic way...

It was a 'Peace' op yegen. Murder us then say RIPeace - I think at the bottom of a well.

Or let's walk out of Parliament due to the Makarios 3 point plan and then get the TMT to kill a few prominent TCs and blow up some mosques in order to get the TCs into enclaves. Violence was your end game was it not?

To start with there were 13 points...The TCs had no choice but abandon Parliament because their lives could not be guaranteed...At the time sick people (TCs) were disappearing from hospitals,killed and trown into wells...Bus loads of TCs were disappearing from the roads,killed and thrown into wells...Who are you kiidding with your revisionist shit????

Misprint! It was a 13 point plan.

Did all these killings occur before or after the 13 point plan and who initiated the violence to begin with?

The hospital killings happened after the 13 points were forced down TC throats,and at the same time as the TCs leaving the government...In December 63 the troubles started with the killing of a Turkish woman by GC police in Nicosia.following GC police opening fire and wounding students from Nicosia Turkish Lycee (the school I was to graduate from some years later!)...

Thank you! I rest my case! (the end game was violence and partition!)

Now, when did the TMT bomb the Turkish Embassy and when did they start to bomb TC mosques and execute Leftist TCs?

And how many hospital killing were there?

The end game was violence and partition all right...Are you going to blame that on the minority TC community????

Lets not get into who did what when,as we will end up getting back to 1571,and there is not much point in that ,is there???

In one hospital alone there were 27 patience killed ,from memory!
Killing of TCs in Nicosia hospital..google it...

No to this on BIR : 21 tc bodies was recoved from nicosia by the red cross to the hospital and then to Ayios vasilios Martin Packard


there is another one :
2. Geunyeli Incident. In a notorious incident, on 12 June 1958 at the height of inter-communal friction ahead of the Macmillan Plan and following a TMT escalation of sectarian violence, British troops punished 35 unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians by obliging them to walk home cross-country past the Turkish Cypriot village of Geunyeli. There they were set upon by Turkish Cypriots; eight of them were murdered and five seriously injured

[alexISS]

Technically you might be right,they might be allowed to call themselves Turkish amongst themselves,and behind close doors...But what is the use if the whole world sees them as Muslims living in Greece...???

They can call themselves whatever they like, and they do. What they cannot do is form "Turkish" organizations that supposedly represent the minority as a whole. You see, only 50% of the muslim minority is Turkish, and our beloved neighbor does everything it can to assimilate the other half. Funny isn't it, Turks don't respect others' minority rights even within a minority of their own...

And is it not true that they are not allowed to chose their religious leaders in any case? The Greek state appoints the Imams for them...Am I wrong???

See my previous post

Let me get this straight...They cannot form organisations with 'Turkish' in its title,even if they only want to represent those who happen to be of Turkish origin...Bravo...Very democratic and totally complies with their human rights....

Thank God you finally got it straight. So now you do understand they are not denied to call themselves whatever they like, they are only not allowed to misrepresent the whole minority under a Turkish label. If it annoys you you can blame Turkey, who is using the Thrace minority for her own interests, much like she does with the TC minority

So no comments on the Muftis issue you so persistently asked me to comment on?