Cyprus-Forum.com

[supporttheunderdog]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

[quattro]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

[Piratis]

Your struggle was not for 'independence'...It was for ENOSIS with Greece...That was the first fcuk up...You exposed your arse to the imperialists,and they fcuked you well and properly,but we got fcuked too in the process...For that you owe us,TCs ,an appology...I am waiting...

You need to get a grip. You really believe that Greek Cypriots should apologize because Turkey decided to invade and occupy the island in 1974? Are you seriously bloody joking? Since when have victims of criminal acts been asked to apologise to their assailants? How did you ever reach such a degenerate conclusion? Is that how the law works in Turkey? Because in the rest of the civilized world it is the wrong-doer that is punished. Only in Turkey does it appear that criminality is state policy and criminals are free to roam the streets while innocent victims languish in prison. I sincerely hope a member of your family never becomes a victim of a serious crime because it would spare them the further insult of having you demand they apologize to the criminal for provoking them.

I did not ask you to apologise to Turkey or the Turks...I asked you to apologise to the 10s of thousands of Turkish Cypriots who had to become refugees and/or had to leave Cyprus and go into exile because of your selfish and insensitive demand for Enosis with Greece and all that followed....I am giving up on Piratis because his mind is made up...He will never see or accept anything other than what has been washed into his brain by years of GC state propaganda...I am hoping your mind is a little bit more open,and you can see that someone like myself and my family who left Cyprus in 1969,and was only able to visit my village after 40 years to find it in ruins,rased to the ground by those GCs who are using our lands for pigfarming,and have not received a sent in compensation for losing our property and our country, deserves an apology,becuase we are the worst victims of your bloodyminded efforts to achieve Enosis with Greece...

Bir, the reason you are giving up is because you know what I say is true.

You already accepted that Enosis was a legitimate right. You also accepted that even without us asking for enosis the British would have managed to divide us anyway on the basis of religious and linguistic differences.

I repeatedly recognized the suffering of TCs and I condemned crimes against innocent TCs. But this seems not to be enough for you. You want to blame the conflict on us, by using your "enosis theory".

We examined that theory in this thread and it has been shown to be baseless. Not only Enosis was a legitimate demand, but it was not what caused the division either. What caused the division is the fact that we have certain differences (language, religion etc) and certain history (Turks vs Greeks, Muslims vs Christians) which were exploited by the British, and they would have been exploited regardless of if there was an enosis demand or not. (just like they are exploited today, decades after the enosis excuse expired)

Instead of trying to blame us for the past and look for excuses to continue with illegalities and crimes in the present and future, it would have been better to recognize your share of responsibility (as we did), to accept that you let yourselves to be manipulated by foreign imperialists, and to work with us for a fair solution that will not be based on the power of the weapons of foreign Imperialists, but instead on universal principles as they exist in all other normal democratic successful countries.

I said the Enosis dream was a legitimate desire,not a right...
I was talking in a social and psychological sense,not legalistically...
You refuse to see Enosis as the mother of all divisions because it does not suit your propaganda purposes...I said the imperialists would've found something else to divide us with,but they might not have been as successful...You are doing what you do best as a spin doctor...You take what people say and twist it to suit your arguments...Unfortunately for you I lived through those days,and I know what I am talking about..I know the feeling of going to bed as a 7 year old and wondering whether I will wake up in the morning,and if I did whether I would find my parents alive...I know what EOKAS and ENOSIS meant to me and to every TC at the time...So cut the crap...Go and talk to someone who has only read about it in biased school textbooks...You might convince them that the TCs voluntarily left their homes and villages and went into enclaves because they wanted to help Turkey's territorial ambitions...You have no chance with me...

Enosis was legitimate from all respects, just as legitimate as independence, and this is defined in the UN resolution about decolonization which explicitly states that "integration into an independent State" is a legitimate option for a territory being decolonized.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

As far as TCs going into enclaves etc, that was due to the conflict, not due to enosis. If TCs had respected the wishes of the majority of the population instead of collaborating with the Colonialists and attacking GCs while at the time threatening us with ethnic cleansing from half of our island, then there would be no conflict between us and no side would suffer.

By the way, 7 year olds can believe in things like Santa Claus also. They can believe anything their parents and their immediate environment tells them (and many adults are not any better). It is obvious that your young mind was poisoned with the kind of hate propaganda that was used to brainwash TCs at that time and turn them against GCs. And yes, that hate propaganda worked as intended, your community was turned against mine, GCs and TCs became enemies and people from both sides suffered as a result.

Piratis, this 7-year-old didnt have to be told anything..He lived it,and he imbibed the fear and the stress that your brave EOKA fighters induced into TC hearts with their Enosis madness...When will you finally realise that the TCs had no choice once you started your push for Union with Greece??? You drove us into the British arms then,just as you are driving us into Turkish arms now...Wake up before it is too late...There are still some brave souls (including the writers and editors of AFRIKA) who are prepared to put themselves at great risk and oppose Turkey's policies in Cyprus...Throw them a lifeline instead of insulting them and blaming them for your own historical mistakes...

No side would suffer if you respected the wishes of the majority. You didn't, you collaborated with the colonialists and you attacked GCs. And not just EOKA, but innocent unarmed GCs as well. What you got in return was a response in kind. Did you expect any other kind of response to you aggression against GCs?

[denizaksulu]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

[quattro]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

[bill cobbett]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

[quattro]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

that means that you are more confused than me

[Piratis]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Expansionism is when you send your troops and take over a territory against the will of the majority of the population. Expansionism was what the Ottomans did and what Turkey did in 1974.

On the other hand, since the vast majority of the population of Cyprus is Greek, being freed from foreign oppressors in the exact same way as all other Greek territories were freed, is not called "expansionism" but Liberation.

A real independence could be an acceptable alternative. But Cyprus was never given a real independence. What was forced on us with the 1960 agreements was some pseudo independence with foreign troops, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, "guarantor powers" and Ottoman style privileges granted to an 18% minority on the expense of the rest of Cypriots.

Did you really expect us to settle for such thing?

[denizaksulu]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Support the Underdog

that means that you are more confused than me

I am the one who ıs confused. I am asking myself, why on earth is Quattro asking people to support the underdog. I thought he was doing just fine.

[quattro]

All IMHO., The threat of Enosis was part of the reason why Turkey had strategic interests in Cyprus, since they probably had concerns, possibly in the light of events up to and in July 74, probably quite reasonable, about Greek expansionism. As it was, the continued aim of Enosis , by some GC interests , including as late as 1967 big Mak Himself, in violation of the treaties, ensured divsion, and the obvious intent of the Greek led coup, representing the clearest possible violation of the treaties by Greece, finally gave Turkey the opportunity it needed. In that respect, probably at no time since 1955 (if not before) was Enosis going to be acceptable to Turkey, and all talk about Enosis should have died in 1960 at the latest, but the insistance on certain GC factions to keep Enosis alive gave Turkey the best grounds it coukld have wished for to keep Takism alive.

Big Maks' foreign policy ventures were a further factor, where his delusions of self importance as a world leader evidently pissed-off the USA i.e Kissinger big time, meaning that Kissinger was unlikley to move to support big Mak when the sh1t hit the fan, if not, as some argue, actively seek his removal. In that respect I think the evidence very clearly shows Kissingerw(and probably Callaghan, knew about the possibility of both the Coup and the Invasion and did SFA to stop them, which is disgraceful enough, but the evidence is tenous and the case somewhat speculative that Kissinger actively encouraged either.

Expansionism is when you send your troops and take over a territory against the will of the majority of the population. Expansionism was what the Ottomans did and what Turkey did in 1974.

On the other hand, since the vast majority of the population of Cyprus is Greek, being freed from foreign oppressors in the exact same way as all other Greek territories were freed, is not called "expansionism" but Liberation.

A real independence could be an acceptable alternative. But Cyprus was never given a real independence. What was forced on us with the 1960 agreements was some pseudo independence with foreign troops, foreign bases, foreign judges of the supreme court, "guarantor powers" and Ottoman style privileges granted to an 18% minority on the expense of the rest of Cypriots.

Did you really expect us to settle for such thing?

the vast majority of the population of Cyprus are CYPRIOTS,