Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

EOKA struggled to unite Cyprus with Greece. It was not a struggle for independence, let us be clear about this.

EOKA fought for our right for self-determination. Beyond that, it was up to us to democratically decide what we wanted to do with our own island.

Neither EOKA, nor TMT, nor Britain, nor Turkey, nor Greece, nor any minority - nobody - has the right to impose on Cyprus its will. The only ones who have this right are the Cypriot people themselves, and with one person one vote determine the destiny of this island among legitimate options.

According to the UN resolution about decolonization the legitimate options are: "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

We fought for nothing more than our rights.

The struggle for freedom in the 50s was not just EOKA, but was supported by the vast majority of the Cypriot population. It was a REVOLUTION with more public support than most other revolutions in the world.

There is something wrong with your understanding of 'self-determination',Piratis...Self determination is not about getting rid of one colonial power and replacing it with another...And 'majority rights' do not involve totally ignoring the wishes of 18 % of your population,and wanting to unite with a country they consider as their mortal enemy...

That is a recepe for disaster,as time had proved...

You are a colony under a Colonial power if this is something imposed on you. Britain was a colonial power but this doesn't mean that Manchester was a colony, because Manchester is made up by mostly British people.

Greece was not a Colonial power (not in that era), and since the majority of the population of Cyprus are Greek and they wanted to be part of Greece, then Cyprus would be as much of a "colony" as Athens or Crete or Rhodes are.

We are as much Greek as any other Greek. If you think of us as your "mortal enemy" that is not our fault, and you can't blame us for this.

The fact is that when we started our revolution we had nothing against the TCs. We lived together with TCs for many years and the "historical enmity" was just part of the past and did not affect our relationship with TCs and our daily lives. Unfortunately some in Britain and Turkey decided that it would serve their interests to re-create that kind of enmity, and that is what they did.

Piratis,
You know I agree with you on the British and American role in our conflict...And you know that I would even agree with you that ENOSIS was a legitimate desire of the GC people...But...It did not make it right...Your leaders at the time knew how the TCs felt about Enosis with Greece,and they pushed hard for it anyway..They should've known it would lead to disaster..That is the mistake I want you to admit...

Rhodes, which also has a Turkish minority, united with Greece in 1948. Not a single nose broke over this. I can guess that the Turks of Rhodes did not support enosis, but this by itself did not create a conflict or disaster.

What created the problem in Cyprus was not the disagreement of TCs with enosis, but the fact that TCs were armed and turned against GCs by the colonialists, who later used the conflict as an excuse to impose on us their terms.

You accept that enosis was a legitimate option but you say going for it was a mistake. Maybe it was but maybe it wasn't. What do you think we should have done instead? Struggle for independence? Do you think that with such an aim it would be any more difficult for the imperialists to divide us? We are Greeks, just like those of Athens, it would be just as easy to convince the TC Muslim minority that being part of a state where the majority are Greek Christians is equal to their "destruction" and "slavery", and that they should therefore fight for partition where each community would rule itself separately.

So enosis or no enosis, as long as the imperialists wanted to divide the Cypriot population, and as long as the TCs could be convinced that they deserve far more than what proportionally belongs to them on the expense of all other Cypriots (and convincing them about this is not hard at all) then the end result would have been the same.

After all "divide and rule" was not something used just in Cyprus. There are many ways to implement it, especially on a population with religious and linguistic differences. (it can even be used to divide people with far less differences, e.g. a denomination of the same religion, like Catholic and Protestant Christians, or Sunni and Shia Muslims)

I agree that the imperialists would've found some other way of trying to divide us,but without Enosis we might've had a fighting chance to remain united,Piratis..I can clearly see the attraction of uniting with Greece for the GCs at the time...Why can't you see that that would be anathema for the TCs???We were not an insignificant minority like those in Rhodes..We were 18% of the population,and that is a very sizeable minority...And given our geopolitical situation and the cold war conditions there was no way we would not resist Enosis with Greece with all our might...

The fact is,and you are finding it diffiuclt to admit,you didnt give two hoots about the feelings of the TCs,and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost...Even after independence was trusted upon us you did not give up...You did your best,hence buttering TMT's bread,to make the agreements unworkable,and finally you simply expelled the TCs from government and took over with the aim of UNITING OUR COUNTRY WITH gREECE...Not once did I hear you utter any doubts about your actions...Not once did you admit that PERHAPS your side could have gone about things differently,especially after independence...You still insist that Cyprus is a Greek island,and you still believe all your actions were justified and above board...That is why the TCs find it hard to trust you and those who think like you which seems to be the overwhelming majority in the South...If you were all like Bananiot,or we were all like Kikapu,there would be no problems of trust or understanding,or respect,or empoathy or compassion between us...But we are not like those selfrealised advanced individuals,and we need to be somewhat assured that the lessons of the past have been learnt...Your attitude is far from reassuring!

When You said, 'and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost' I am sure you meant 'at our expense'.

That too!..

[Get Real!]

Going back to Birk the twerp,

It’s unbelievable that a mere illiterate peasant (Bir’s dad) from a remote and unknown Paphos village by the name of “Istinjio” (population 20!) had turned the peaceful area into a major TMT stronghold!

And we’re gonna trust these uncivilized fools with a “TC state”?

Sure... come and get it Guevara!

You are really showing your ignorance now,GR the sewer rat!

My father was a school teacher (actually a headmaster) and not an illiterate peasant...He was not from Istinjo...The village in question was Yalia,population 1000...The presence of TMT made the area peaceful,you silly dingbat!!!The TCs have already got their state,YOU go and get it if you are brave enough,stupid coward!!!

You never fooled me for a second you 2-cent illiterate Turkish ape, because I’ve got a 6th sense that detects the false prophets, the trouble makers, the gun-ho hillbillies, and the fucking Islamist terrorists like you!

Once a terrorist ALWAYS a terrorist… and I don’t like you one bit!

[denizaksulu]

Going back to Birk the twerp,

It’s unbelievable that a mere illiterate peasant (Bir’s dad) from a remote and unknown Paphos village by the name of “Istinjio” (population 20!) had turned the peaceful area into a major TMT stronghold!

And we’re gonna trust these uncivilized fools with a “TC state”?

Sure... come and get it Guevara!

You are really showing your ignorance now,GR the sewer rat!

My father was a school teacher (actually a headmaster) and not an illiterate peasant...He was not from Istinjo...The village in question was Yalia,population 1000...The presence of TMT made the area peaceful,you silly dingbat!!!The TCs have already got their state,YOU go and get it if you are brave enough,stupid coward!!!

You never fooled me for a second you 2-cent illiterate Turkish ape, because I’ve got a 6th sense that detects the false prophets, the trouble makers, the gun-ho hillbillies, and the fucking Islamist terrorists like you!

Once a terrorist ALWAYS a terrorist… and I don’t like you one bit!

Fornicatin' 'ell. Wot a nelliphant

[Hermes]

The fact is,and you are finding it diffiuclt to admit,you didnt give two hoots about the feelings of the TCs,and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost...

You presume too much. The struggle for independence in its early days was directed against the British not the T/Cs or Turkey.

Ordinary T/Cs did not join the British Auxiliary Corps to fight Enosis. Ordinary Turkish Cypriots were both unaware of where the British were leading them and were actively encouraged by their leadership to reinforce the Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing a living. Like the British, Denktash and Ankara had their uses for the T/Cs who also saw in them the perfect means to discord and partition.

Greek Cypriots who initially thought they were waging an armed struggle against the British now found themselves also confronting the Turkish Cypriots who had become the stooges of Ankara and the UK.

Meanwhile, the T/C leadership in bed with Turkey's deep state were busy selling their community down the river, forcibly encouraging separation, assassinating those who resisted their separatist agenda and sowing hatred and discord by instigating attacks on Turkish and Greek Cypriots.

Thus a few hundred thousand Greek Cypriots found themselves facing not just the British, but also T/C auxiliaries, the TMT, and behind them Ankara and the interests of the US. Is it any wonder that many saw a political Union with Greece as the only viable option at the time?

The truth is that Turkey and the T/C leadership were opposed not just to enosis but to outright independence. Partition was always the goal of Turkish policy. It was also the goal of successive T/C leaders and still is to this day. What we have today is not the outcome of the Cypriot struggle for Enosis but the Cypriot struggle for autonomy. Do you think Turkey keeps its troops on Cyprus today to prevent union with Greece?

Instead of blaming G/Cs for the current division you would be better off turning your attention to the malevolent Turkish desire to partition the island to prevent Cypriot autonomy. That is where we are now. Blaming G/Cs for the past, seeing them as unreconstructed nationalists, is merely doing Turkey's dirty work for it. Something T/Cs have never been shy of. Ever.

[denizaksulu]

The red highlighted bits should throw some light on TMT and its original aim, then later its supporting 'partition' as a counter measure to ENOSIS.

ENOSIS was your aim and EOKA was the tool the GCs used to achieve it after you rid Cyprus of the colonial yoke. After that it was the turn for ENOSIS. It would be stupid of the GCs to expect to fight with EOKA to get rid of the Colonial power and then find themselves united with Greece - dont you think?

There are those of us who remember the chants of EOKA and ENOSIS in the fifties, so kindly desist from denying that it was NOT the case.

NOTES
INTRODUCTION
1. The so-called Acheson Plan of 1964, like the later Annan Plan (See note 10
below), was developed through a number of stages. Its authors, US Secretary of
State Dean Acheson and Under Secretary of State George Ball, proposed a
NATO solution for Cyprus. Ball's memoirs note: "The issues were clear enough.
Cyprus was a strategically important piece of real estate at issue between two
NATO partners: Greece and Turkey. We needed to keep it under NATO
control."
The plan went through various distinct versions. The nub of the proposal was
that a substantial area of the Karpas peninsula be granted to Turkey for use as a
military base; that the remainder of Cyprus be united with Greece, after the
island's division into eight cantons, of which two would be administered by the
Turkish Cypriots; and that Greece would cede to Turkey the island of
Kastellorizo.
The first version of the plan was accepted by Turkey as a basis for negotiation,
but rejected by Makarios as being partitional and by Greece on the grounds
that no ceding of Greek territory to Turkey would be accepted by parliament.
The final version, which proposed that any territory granted to the Turkish
army be by way of a 25-year lease, was accepted in principle by Greece but
eventually rejected by Ankara, on the grounds that nothing less than full
Turkish sovereignty over the proposed base in the Karpas peninsula would be
acceptable. Rejection was confirmed by the Turkish Foreign Minister, Feridun
Erkin, in a letter to Dean Acheson: the date of this letter, 28 August 1964,marks
the rejection of compromise by Turkey and the ending of the 'Acheson process'.
Subsequent mythology has represented non-acceptance by Makarios of the
Acheson formula as an opportunity missed by him, whereas in fact the ultimate
rejection of the plan came from Ankara.
2. TMT (Turk Mukavemet Teskilati - Turkish Resistance Organisation). From 1943
(a time when Ankara was indifferent to Cyprus) a political organisation,
KATAK, was, according to Turkish Cypriot historians, encouraged by the
British as a balance against Greek Cypriot agitation for enosis.An armed adjunct
of the Turkish Cypriot leadership (Volkan) was formed in 1945, reportedly also
with occasional British support. This was replaced in January 1958 by a secret
paramilitary organisation, TMT, founded by the Turkish army, with the
approval of the Ankara government and in co-operation with Rauf Denktash.
TMT also was originally conceived as a counterweight to EOKA, a safeguard
against any move towards enosis and a promoter of taksim (partition) as the
proper alternative to British colonial rule. It became a medium for the
projection of Turkish military strength into Cyprus. The original target was for
the arming of a force of 10,000 men, many of whom were expected to be former
363
members of the British army or of the special police units formed by the British
in the battle against EOKA. The initial development of TMT was tolerated b)
the British army, which saw it as a potential ally: only in 1958 was it proscribed
after violent inter-communal clashes. Its continuing activity after Cypriot
independence was seen by the Greek Cypriots as a threat to the cohesion 0;:
Cyprus and a barrier to the popular wish for enosis. In the period after 1960 TMT
built up a broader organisation, The Turkish Fighters, to act as an armed
reserve (See note 9 below and note 31/1for British support ofTMT).
3. Enosis (union) was the concept of Cyprus uniting with Greece. Considered by
its proponents as a natural progression from the earher incorporation into
Greece of other areas with a large Greek-speaking majority (i.e. Crete in 1913
and the Dodecanese Islands in 1947), there were at least three occasions (in
1907, 1914and 1940) when Britain appeared ready to adopt this option.
Enosis was particularly supported by the Greek Orthodox Church and by righr
wing activists. In a 1950 census 96 per cent of Greek Cypriots (who composed
80 per cent of the population of Cyprus) professed themselves to be enosis
supporters.
'Double-enosis' was the concept of a simultaneous union of part of the island
with Greece and part with Turkey.
Enosis was one element of the megali idea (See note 7/2).
4. See Noam Chomsky 'Failed States', pp. 143-4, with references there

[boulio]

deniz i can say that enosis maybe in between wars and after ww2 but not 1821 or 1878,also again im stating eoka was a force against british and turkish agitation.as we see kikapu provided evidence that the t/c were conspiring from 1923 signing of the treaty of lausaune to have cyprus returned to turkey.Its putting holes in the turkish thesis do you understand?

[denizaksulu]

deniz i can say that enosis maybe in between wars and after ww2 but not 1821 or 1878,also again im stating eoka was a force against british and turkish agitation.as we see kikapu provided evidence that the t/c were conspiring from 1923 signing of the treaty of lausaune to have cyprus returned to turkey.Its putting holes in the turkish thesis do you understand?

...and 'Turkish Agitation' caused by the GC demand, right from the first day the British flew their flag upon landing at the Salines/Larnaca in 1878.

Can you see 'cause and effect' here?

[Hermes]

The red highlighted bits should throw some light on TMT and its original aim, then later its supporting 'partition' as a counter measure to ENOSIS.

We know the aim of the TMT was partition. We know that was Turkey's aim in setting it up. We know that partition is the current aim of the T/C leadership and of current Turkish policy makers. The overwhelming majority of G/Cs long ago gave up on the idea of enosis as a viable or even desirable option. So why are T/Cs still claiming that enosis is the reason Turkish troops currently occupy northern Cyprus?

[denizaksulu]

The red highlighted bits should throw some light on TMT and its original aim, then later its supporting 'partition' as a counter measure to ENOSIS.

We know the aim of the TMT was partition. We know that was Turkey's aim in setting it up. We know that partition is the current aim of the T/C leadership and of current Turkish policy makers. The overwhelming majority of G/Cs long ago gave up on the idea of enosis as a viable or even desirable option. So why are T/Cs still claiming that enosis is the reason Turkish troops currently occupy northern Cyprus?

After the coup in 1974, Under Nicos Sampson you were almost there. The fact that it never happened is neither here nor there. No one can say it would have never taken place. Too many ifs and buts.

....but now we know Turkeys aims towards Cyprus were not 'honorable'. What most TCs believed at the time was that the TA would return after the legal goverment of the RoC was in place again. Ofcourse this did not happen. Turkeys 'secret' plans have become clearer. 'After the fact' matters always become more clearer.

What is know now is that attemps at overthrowing Pres. Makarios was always on the agenda in Greece. No peace was ever intended for our beloved island for some silly dream. Had we fought purely for independence Cyprus would be a real Paradise.

[boulio]

...and 'Turkish Agitation' caused by the GC demand, right from the first day the British flew their flag upon landing at the Salines/Larnaca in 1878.

Can you see 'cause and effect' here?

again im arguing about eoka's role.do we have any documanttion of a demand of enosis in 1878 considering that crete,the eastern aegean islands and dodecanese were not even incorporated within the greek state in 1878?