Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

EOKA struggled to unite Cyprus with Greece. It was not a struggle for independence, let us be clear about this.

EOKA fought for our right for self-determination. Beyond that, it was up to us to democratically decide what we wanted to do with our own island.

Neither EOKA, nor TMT, nor Britain, nor Turkey, nor Greece, nor any minority - nobody - has the right to impose on Cyprus its will. The only ones who have this right are the Cypriot people themselves, and with one person one vote determine the destiny of this island among legitimate options.

According to the UN resolution about decolonization the legitimate options are: "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

We fought for nothing more than our rights.

The struggle for freedom in the 50s was not just EOKA, but was supported by the vast majority of the Cypriot population. It was a REVOLUTION with more public support than most other revolutions in the world.

There is something wrong with your understanding of 'self-determination',Piratis...Self determination is not about getting rid of one colonial power and replacing it with another...And 'majority rights' do not involve totally ignoring the wishes of 18 % of your population,and wanting to unite with a country they consider as their mortal enemy...

That is a recepe for disaster,as time had proved...

You are a colony under a Colonial power if this is something imposed on you. Britain was a colonial power but this doesn't mean that Manchester was a colony, because Manchester is made up by mostly British people.

Greece was not a Colonial power (not in that era), and since the majority of the population of Cyprus are Greek and they wanted to be part of Greece, then Cyprus would be as much of a "colony" as Athens or Crete or Rhodes are.

We are as much Greek as any other Greek. If you think of us as your "mortal enemy" that is not our fault, and you can't blame us for this.

The fact is that when we started our revolution we had nothing against the TCs. We lived together with TCs for many years and the "historical enmity" was just part of the past and did not affect our relationship with TCs and our daily lives. Unfortunately some in Britain and Turkey decided that it would serve their interests to re-create that kind of enmity, and that is what they did.

Piratis,
You know I agree with you on the British and American role in our conflict...And you know that I would even agree with you that ENOSIS was a legitimate desire of the GC people...But...It did not make it right...Your leaders at the time knew how the TCs felt about Enosis with Greece,and they pushed hard for it anyway..They should've known it would lead to disaster..That is the mistake I want you to admit...

Rhodes, which also has a Turkish minority, united with Greece in 1948. Not a single nose broke over this. I can guess that the Turks of Rhodes did not support enosis, but this by itself did not create a conflict or disaster.

What created the problem in Cyprus was not the disagreement of TCs with enosis, but the fact that TCs were armed and turned against GCs by the colonialists, who later used the conflict as an excuse to impose on us their terms.

You accept that enosis was a legitimate option but you say going for it was a mistake. Maybe it was but maybe it wasn't. What do you think we should have done instead? Struggle for independence? Do you think that with such an aim it would be any more difficult for the imperialists to divide us? We are Greeks, just like those of Athens, it would be just as easy to convince the TC Muslim minority that being part of a state where the majority are Greek Christians is equal to their "destruction" and "slavery", and that they should therefore fight for partition where each community would rule itself separately.

So enosis or no enosis, as long as the imperialists wanted to divide the Cypriot population, and as long as the TCs could be convinced that they deserve far more than what proportionally belongs to them on the expense of all other Cypriots (and convincing them about this is not hard at all) then the end result would have been the same.

After all "divide and rule" was not something used just in Cyprus. There are many ways to implement it, especially on a population with religious and linguistic differences. (it can even be used to divide people with far less differences, e.g. a denomination of the same religion, like Catholic and Protestant Christians, or Sunni and Shia Muslims)

[Kikapu]

ACTUALLY HERMES cyprus first vp and every loving Dr.Kutchuk wanted partition or the return of cyprus to turkey as early as 1954:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus29817-30.html

so i guess g/c can claim that eoka was created not only for the liberation of cyprus but to also combat taksim

Have you forgotten that in 1950 you had a plebicit and voted for ENOSIS with Greece by a margin of 95%????? Don't play the who started it game,bulio,you cannot win that way...

For what it's worth, here is a post from BigOz a while back, giving us the "FACTS LIST" on history of Cyprus with the following statement;

"Belaw is a factual chronology of events in Cyprus for the past 120 plus years. It may help educate some silly fanatics in this forum!"

1923 Lausanne Treaty; annexation recognized, and all claims to the island renounced. Turkish Cypriot (TC) delegation to Ankara to press for return of island to Turkey.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

[denizaksulu]

ACTUALLY HERMES cyprus first vp and every loving Dr.Kutchuk wanted partition or the return of cyprus to turkey as early as 1954:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus29817-30.html

so i guess g/c can claim that eoka was created not only for the liberation of cyprus but to also combat taksim

...but you were after Enosis since 1821.............fcs

[Piratis]

ACTUALLY HERMES cyprus first vp and every loving Dr.Kutchuk wanted partition or the return of cyprus to turkey as early as 1954:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus29817-30.html

so i guess g/c can claim that eoka was created not only for the liberation of cyprus but to also combat taksim

...but you were after Enosis since 1821.............fcs

Not correct. In 1821 there was no Greek state to unite to. If Cyprus was liberated from back then it would have been part of the initial Greek state and therefore there wouldn't be a need for a subsequent union.

I am not exactly sure what you are blaming us for here. For wanting our freedom from the Ottomans? Because it goes without saying that when Greeks would be liberated they would want one free Greek state. Or did you expect us to want a separate Greek statelet on each island and each town?

[denizaksulu]

ACTUALLY HERMES cyprus first vp and every loving Dr.Kutchuk wanted partition or the return of cyprus to turkey as early as 1954:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus29817-30.html

so i guess g/c can claim that eoka was created not only for the liberation of cyprus but to also combat taksim

...but you were after Enosis since 1821.............fcs

Not correct. In 1821 there was no Greek state to unite to. If Cyprus was liberated from back then it would have been part of the initial Greek state and therefore there wouldn't be a need for a subsequent union.

I am not exactly sure what you are blaming us for here. For wanting our freedom from the Ottomans? Because it goes without saying that when Greeks would be liberated they would want one free Greek state. Or did you expect us to want a separate Greek statelet on each island and each town?

My mistake. I had been dreaming of Boumbolina. I meant to say 1878.

[BirKibrisli]

EOKA struggled to unite Cyprus with Greece. It was not a struggle for independence, let us be clear about this.

EOKA fought for our right for self-determination. Beyond that, it was up to us to democratically decide what we wanted to do with our own island.

Neither EOKA, nor TMT, nor Britain, nor Turkey, nor Greece, nor any minority - nobody - has the right to impose on Cyprus its will. The only ones who have this right are the Cypriot people themselves, and with one person one vote determine the destiny of this island among legitimate options.

According to the UN resolution about decolonization the legitimate options are: "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

We fought for nothing more than our rights.

The struggle for freedom in the 50s was not just EOKA, but was supported by the vast majority of the Cypriot population. It was a REVOLUTION with more public support than most other revolutions in the world.

There is something wrong with your understanding of 'self-determination',Piratis...Self determination is not about getting rid of one colonial power and replacing it with another...And 'majority rights' do not involve totally ignoring the wishes of 18 % of your population,and wanting to unite with a country they consider as their mortal enemy...

That is a recepe for disaster,as time had proved...

You are a colony under a Colonial power if this is something imposed on you. Britain was a colonial power but this doesn't mean that Manchester was a colony, because Manchester is made up by mostly British people.

Greece was not a Colonial power (not in that era), and since the majority of the population of Cyprus are Greek and they wanted to be part of Greece, then Cyprus would be as much of a "colony" as Athens or Crete or Rhodes are.

We are as much Greek as any other Greek. If you think of us as your "mortal enemy" that is not our fault, and you can't blame us for this.

The fact is that when we started our revolution we had nothing against the TCs. We lived together with TCs for many years and the "historical enmity" was just part of the past and did not affect our relationship with TCs and our daily lives. Unfortunately some in Britain and Turkey decided that it would serve their interests to re-create that kind of enmity, and that is what they did.

Piratis,
You know I agree with you on the British and American role in our conflict...And you know that I would even agree with you that ENOSIS was a legitimate desire of the GC people...But...It did not make it right...Your leaders at the time knew how the TCs felt about Enosis with Greece,and they pushed hard for it anyway..They should've known it would lead to disaster..That is the mistake I want you to admit...

Rhodes, which also has a Turkish minority, united with Greece in 1948. Not a single nose broke over this. I can guess that the Turks of Rhodes did not support enosis, but this by itself did not create a conflict or disaster.

What created the problem in Cyprus was not the disagreement of TCs with enosis, but the fact that TCs were armed and turned against GCs by the colonialists, who later used the conflict as an excuse to impose on us their terms.

You accept that enosis was a legitimate option but you say going for it was a mistake. Maybe it was but maybe it wasn't. What do you think we should have done instead? Struggle for independence? Do you think that with such an aim it would be any more difficult for the imperialists to divide us? We are Greeks, just like those of Athens, it would be just as easy to convince the TC Muslim minority that being part of a state where the majority are Greek Christians is equal to their "destruction" and "slavery", and that they should therefore fight for partition where each community would rule itself separately.

So enosis or no enosis, as long as the imperialists wanted to divide the Cypriot population, and as long as the TCs could be convinced that they deserve far more than what proportionally belongs to them on the expense of all other Cypriots (and convincing them about this is not hard at all) then the end result would have been the same.

After all "divide and rule" was not something used just in Cyprus. There are many ways to implement it, especially on a population with religious and linguistic differences. (it can even be used to divide people with far less differences, e.g. a denomination of the same religion, like Catholic and Protestant Christians, or Sunni and Shia Muslims)

I agree that the imperialists would've found some other way of trying to divide us,but without Enosis we might've had a fighting chance to remain united,Piratis..I can clearly see the attraction of uniting with Greece for the GCs at the time...Why can't you see that that would be anathema for the TCs???We were not an insignificant minority like those in Rhodes..We were 18% of the population,and that is a very sizeable minority...And given our geopolitical situation and the cold war conditions there was no way we would not resist Enosis with Greece with all our might...

The fact is,and you are finding it diffiuclt to admit,you didnt give two hoots about the feelings of the TCs,and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost...Even after independence was trusted upon us you did not give up...You did your best,hence buttering TMT's bread,to make the agreements unworkable,and finally you simply expelled the TCs from government and took over with the aim of UNITING OUR COUNTRY WITH gREECE...Not once did I hear you utter any doubts about your actions...Not once did you admit that PERHAPS your side could have gone about things differently,especially after independence...You still insist that Cyprus is a Greek island,and you still believe all your actions were justified and above board...That is why the TCs find it hard to trust you and those who think like you which seems to be the overwhelming majority in the South...If you were all like Bananiot,or we were all like Kikapu,there would be no problems of trust or understanding,or respect,or empoathy or compassion between us...But we are not like those selfrealised advanced individuals,and we need to be somewhat assured that the lessons of the past have been learnt...Your attitude is far from reassuring!

[Get Real!]

Going back to Birk the twerp,

It’s unbelievable that a mere illiterate peasant (Bir’s dad) from a remote and unknown Paphos village by the name of “Istinjio” (population 20!) had turned the peaceful area into a major TMT stronghold!

And we’re gonna trust these uncivilized fools with a “TC state”?

Sure... come and get it Guevara!

[denizaksulu]

EOKA struggled to unite Cyprus with Greece. It was not a struggle for independence, let us be clear about this.

EOKA fought for our right for self-determination. Beyond that, it was up to us to democratically decide what we wanted to do with our own island.

Neither EOKA, nor TMT, nor Britain, nor Turkey, nor Greece, nor any minority - nobody - has the right to impose on Cyprus its will. The only ones who have this right are the Cypriot people themselves, and with one person one vote determine the destiny of this island among legitimate options.

According to the UN resolution about decolonization the legitimate options are: "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence"
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

We fought for nothing more than our rights.

The struggle for freedom in the 50s was not just EOKA, but was supported by the vast majority of the Cypriot population. It was a REVOLUTION with more public support than most other revolutions in the world.

There is something wrong with your understanding of 'self-determination',Piratis...Self determination is not about getting rid of one colonial power and replacing it with another...And 'majority rights' do not involve totally ignoring the wishes of 18 % of your population,and wanting to unite with a country they consider as their mortal enemy...

That is a recepe for disaster,as time had proved...

You are a colony under a Colonial power if this is something imposed on you. Britain was a colonial power but this doesn't mean that Manchester was a colony, because Manchester is made up by mostly British people.

Greece was not a Colonial power (not in that era), and since the majority of the population of Cyprus are Greek and they wanted to be part of Greece, then Cyprus would be as much of a "colony" as Athens or Crete or Rhodes are.

We are as much Greek as any other Greek. If you think of us as your "mortal enemy" that is not our fault, and you can't blame us for this.

The fact is that when we started our revolution we had nothing against the TCs. We lived together with TCs for many years and the "historical enmity" was just part of the past and did not affect our relationship with TCs and our daily lives. Unfortunately some in Britain and Turkey decided that it would serve their interests to re-create that kind of enmity, and that is what they did.

Piratis,
You know I agree with you on the British and American role in our conflict...And you know that I would even agree with you that ENOSIS was a legitimate desire of the GC people...But...It did not make it right...Your leaders at the time knew how the TCs felt about Enosis with Greece,and they pushed hard for it anyway..They should've known it would lead to disaster..That is the mistake I want you to admit...

Rhodes, which also has a Turkish minority, united with Greece in 1948. Not a single nose broke over this. I can guess that the Turks of Rhodes did not support enosis, but this by itself did not create a conflict or disaster.

What created the problem in Cyprus was not the disagreement of TCs with enosis, but the fact that TCs were armed and turned against GCs by the colonialists, who later used the conflict as an excuse to impose on us their terms.

You accept that enosis was a legitimate option but you say going for it was a mistake. Maybe it was but maybe it wasn't. What do you think we should have done instead? Struggle for independence? Do you think that with such an aim it would be any more difficult for the imperialists to divide us? We are Greeks, just like those of Athens, it would be just as easy to convince the TC Muslim minority that being part of a state where the majority are Greek Christians is equal to their "destruction" and "slavery", and that they should therefore fight for partition where each community would rule itself separately.

So enosis or no enosis, as long as the imperialists wanted to divide the Cypriot population, and as long as the TCs could be convinced that they deserve far more than what proportionally belongs to them on the expense of all other Cypriots (and convincing them about this is not hard at all) then the end result would have been the same.

After all "divide and rule" was not something used just in Cyprus. There are many ways to implement it, especially on a population with religious and linguistic differences. (it can even be used to divide people with far less differences, e.g. a denomination of the same religion, like Catholic and Protestant Christians, or Sunni and Shia Muslims)

I agree that the imperialists would've found some other way of trying to divide us,but without Enosis we might've had a fighting chance to remain united,Piratis..I can clearly see the attraction of uniting with Greece for the GCs at the time...Why can't you see that that would be anathema for the TCs???We were not an insignificant minority like those in Rhodes..We were 18% of the population,and that is a very sizeable minority...And given our geopolitical situation and the cold war conditions there was no way we would not resist Enosis with Greece with all our might...

The fact is,and you are finding it diffiuclt to admit,you didnt give two hoots about the feelings of the TCs,and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost...Even after independence was trusted upon us you did not give up...You did your best,hence buttering TMT's bread,to make the agreements unworkable,and finally you simply expelled the TCs from government and took over with the aim of UNITING OUR COUNTRY WITH gREECE...Not once did I hear you utter any doubts about your actions...Not once did you admit that PERHAPS your side could have gone about things differently,especially after independence...You still insist that Cyprus is a Greek island,and you still believe all your actions were justified and above board...That is why the TCs find it hard to trust you and those who think like you which seems to be the overwhelming majority in the South...If you were all like Bananiot,or we were all like Kikapu,there would be no problems of trust or understanding,or respect,or empoathy or compassion between us...But we are not like those selfrealised advanced individuals,and we need to be somewhat assured that the lessons of the past have been learnt...Your attitude is far from reassuring!

When You said, 'and you wanted to impose your wishes upon us at all cost' I am sure you meant 'at our expense'.

[denizaksulu]

Going back to Birk the twerp,

It’s unbelievable that a mere illiterate peasant (Bir’s dad) from a remote and unknown Paphos village by the name of “Istinjio” (population 20!) had turned the peaceful area into a major TMT stronghold!

And we’re gonna trust these uncivilized fools with a “TC state”?

Sure... come and get it Guevara!

No one will askYOU to trust the north with a state. The way things are going they will do ittheir way - without YOU.

[BirKibrisli]

Going back to Birk the twerp,

It’s unbelievable that a mere illiterate peasant (Bir’s dad) from a remote and unknown Paphos village by the name of “Istinjio” (population 20!) had turned the peaceful area into a major TMT stronghold!

And we’re gonna trust these uncivilized fools with a “TC state”?

Sure... come and get it Guevara!

You are really showing your ignorance now,GR the sewer rat!

My father was a school teacher (actually a headmaster) and not an illiterate peasant...He was not from Istinjo...The village in question was Yalia,population 1000...The presence of TMT made the area peaceful,you silly dingbat!!!The TCs have already got their state,YOU go and get it if you are brave enough,stupid coward!!!