Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Cypriots are just not ready for such a move so what do we do in the interim when you consider the total mistrust between the two sides.

I don't buy that at all. You are always ready to point out your concerns but you are not willing to demand changes that would do away with your concerns that would also be acceptable to the other side. You problem is, you are not ready to give up on your Taksim Dreams, is the reason why you want to retain ethnically divided political parties. Don't blame good solutions based on Democracy and Human rights as being faulty and untrustworthy. Blame them on you wanting to keep Cyprus divided in anyway possible, and wanting ethnic political parties is just one of them.

Neither side is mature or ready for such a move, can you answer this question honestly maybe difficult for you but please try. Can a political ideological party be manipulated by either ethnic group to favor one community more than the other? or can one ethnic group be excluded with just a symbolic presence?

I need to go, but will get back to your question if you want to discuss it furthermore.

Basically in a word, No, political parties based on political ideologies cannot be manipulated to favour one ethnic group over another when political parties based on ideology are made up of all ethnic groups, specially in today's world and Cyprus being in the EU.

But feel free to tell me what those manipulations could be that you may fear so that we can discuss them.!

And your answers are?

You haven't given me your specific concern questions yet, so how can I answer them.?

On the general question you asked, I gave the answer as a "NO". Perhaps you missed it.?

So you feel that one ethnic group within a party cannot hijack the party to reduce others to a symbolic representation and then proceed to exploit that advantage one elected by the people?

But the political parties are based on political ideology and not based on ethnic orientation. You are a TC and Bananiot is a GC. Lets just say you both have same political ideology, therefore why would the ethnicity matter since you want the same policicies for the country.? Lets say Runaway, aka Eric Dayi who is black, but still has the same ideology as you and Bananiot. Why does it matter if he is black. If what you fear were to happen, surely there is no advantage for that political party, since they will lose membership to other parties and make themselves worthless. The whole idea of any political party based on ideology, is to build membership and not reduce them. Who is going to join them for them being a racists political party in the future, except by other racists, but they will lose far more members who are not racists. Naturally, there are various degrees of differences within each political party based on ideology and different members will have different ideas, even within the same party, which is what you want.

If governments are formed with a different coalition political parties, how can anyone within any political party ignore it's own members without losing their members either before an election or after to other political parties they feel more associated with. What would be the advantage to discriminate against their own members, because the end result will be, other bigger political parties would win in the future.? Policies will be based on ideology and not on ethnicity, so I do not share your concerns at all. We are Talking about having a True Democracy after all, and not something they have in Turkey where the ethnic minority, the Kurds are ignored in the political system. Besides, you also forget that there will be a Federal Constitution to safeguard everyone's rights.

Lots of excuses but no out right disagreement, so it is possible but they would lose ground and continue to fight within the party, for example if bananiot and eric dayi ganged up on me and did not follow the original party line yet still got the support necessary within the party to adopt and apply laws that would effect the TCs community negatively.These are valid concerns which should be addressed as neither side trusts the other one iota.

Political ideology is never static, but fluid in Democracies. Only in dictatorships where the political ideology is static.!

In your response you are worried about being pushed aside by Bananiot and Eric Dayi, a GC and a TC, because their ideology slightly various from yours, but that that does mean they can change the constitution to remove any of the rights given to all citizens that would harm you. It might mean you don't get everything you want, but then again, no body gets everything they want all the time. But over time, advantages and disadvantages spread out evenly. Also don't forget, that in a BBF, there will also be a "Rotating Presidency", so where are your fears coming from.? Perhaps you may find that you are in the wrong political party who does not represent you, so you go to the one that does, whether that new party is a majority GCs, evenly balanced of GCs and TCs, or a majority TCs. You will never get everything you want and neither will anyone else, regardless which political party the belong to. That's why it is called a Democracy, which gives the reigns of the country to the majority political party to lead the country, or parties in the case of coalition government. It does not give the reigns of the country to the majority GCs to rule over minority TCs or anyone else. That could only happen if there are political parties based on ethnicity in a non Democratic way..

[Viewpoint]

So you are saying it is possible but unlikely. Knowing the mistrust between the two sides do you not think that even this possibility is very dangerous and can cause problems if either sode decided to exploit it.

[Kikapu]

So you are saying it is possible but unlikely. Knowing the mistrust between the two sides do you not think that even this possibility is very dangerous and can cause problems if either sode decided to exploit it.

I don't even know what is it that you are asking, because you don't really have a specific question. All you are asking me as far as I can gather is, will you be able to do anything you want that will ONLY benefit the TCs to have a say so in their future and not for the future of all Cypriots and Cyprus, including to have the option to secede from the union, and the answer to that is,"NO", you cannot do anything as you would like to wish for them to happen or anyone else for that matter, including the majority political party members, because for the most part, the Federal Constitution and the EU will safeguard every one's rights. You are yet to give me any specific question as to how the minority members in any political party based on ideology can be pushed aside.? You are all in the same political party. You are all in the same boat. If the party rises to power, you will all rise, and if the party sinks, you will all sink, GCs, TCs and all the other minorities within that party. I can't make it any simpler that that for you I'm afraid.

Put it this way, political parties based on ethnicity in the government, TCs as a minority will be at a disadvantaged, and not just because they are in the minority, but also because not all TCs think alike and want to remain in one ethnic TC party, because if that were to be the case, there would ONLY be one TC party in the north now and not almost 13 different political parties.

[Viewpoint]

So you are saying it is possible but unlikely. Knowing the mistrust between the two sides do you not think that even this possibility is very dangerous and can cause problems if either sode decided to exploit it.

I don't even know what is it that you are asking, because you don't really have a specific question. All you are asking me as far as I can gather is, will you be able to do anything you want that will ONLY benefit the TCs to have a say so in their future and not for the future of all Cypriots and Cyprus, including to have the option to secede from the union, and the answer to that is,"NO", you cannot do anything as you would like to wish for them to happen or anyone else for that matter, including the majority political party members, because for the most part, the Federal Constitution and the EU will safeguard every one's rights. You are yet to give me any specific question as to how the minority members in any political party based on ideology can be pushed aside.? You are all in the same political party. You are all in the same boat. If the party rises to power, you will all rise, and if the party sinks, you will all sink, GCs, TCs and all the other minorities within that party. I can't make it any simpler that that for you I'm afraid.

Put it this way, political parties based on ethnicity in the government, TCs as a minority will be at a disadvantaged, and not just because they are in the minority, but also because not all TCs think alike and want to remain in one ethnic TC party, because if that were to be the case, there would ONLY be one TC party in the north now and not almost 13 different political parties.

I understand what you are saying just fine but what you seem to be doing is trying to find excuses to support your mixed party theory but the bottom line is that once the TC community vote is obtained using "political idoelogy" as a vechile to come to power the "majority" being the GCs can use the situation to their advantage but according to you is very unlikely. Is that simple and clear enough for you?

[Kikapu]

So you are saying it is possible but unlikely. Knowing the mistrust between the two sides do you not think that even this possibility is very dangerous and can cause problems if either sode decided to exploit it.

I don't even know what is it that you are asking, because you don't really have a specific question. All you are asking me as far as I can gather is, will you be able to do anything you want that will ONLY benefit the TCs to have a say so in their future and not for the future of all Cypriots and Cyprus, including to have the option to secede from the union, and the answer to that is,"NO", you cannot do anything as you would like to wish for them to happen or anyone else for that matter, including the majority political party members, because for the most part, the Federal Constitution and the EU will safeguard every one's rights. You are yet to give me any specific question as to how the minority members in any political party based on ideology can be pushed aside.? You are all in the same political party. You are all in the same boat. If the party rises to power, you will all rise, and if the party sinks, you will all sink, GCs, TCs and all the other minorities within that party. I can't make it any simpler that that for you I'm afraid.

Put it this way, political parties based on ethnicity in the government, TCs as a minority will be at a disadvantaged, and not just because they are in the minority, but also because not all TCs think alike and want to remain in one ethnic TC party, because if that were to be the case, there would ONLY be one TC party in the north now and not almost 13 different political parties.

I understand what you are saying just fine but what you seem to be doing is trying to find excuses to support your mixed party theory but the bottom line is that once the TC community vote is obtained using "political idoelogy" as a vechile to come to power the "majority" being the GCs can use the situation to their advantage but according to you is very unlikely. Is that simple and clear enough for you?

I'm not making excuses or justifications on the theory of political parties based on ideology. I'm giving you the reality and not some fiction.

No, you still don't get it, so let me simplify it for you a little bit more.

Lets take the present British government. You have the Conservatives as a majority party, but not majority enough to hold power without help, so they took abroad the Liberal Democrats, which is a smaller party of the three, the other being the Labour party. The LD can't demand too much to benefit their party's ideology, but the Conservatives can't ignore and push them aside either since they help them to come to power. The LD can bring the Conservative government down in a heartbeat if they wanted, so don't assume, that once the elections are over, it's going to be "see you later, alligator" to the minority members in the government by the majority.

[Viewpoint]

You are referring to coallition governments i am referring to deviation within a given party who supposedly hides under the guise of political ideology to gain power and maipulate the benefits in favor of certain groups. Given the political immaturity and mistrust of the two sides i believe this type of structure although desired would probably not work on day one.

[Kikapu]

You are referring to coallition governments i am referring to deviation within a given party who supposedly hides under the guise of political ideology to gain power and maipulate the benefits in favor of certain groups. Given the political immaturity and mistrust of the two sides i believe this type of structure although desired would probably not work on day one.

It's the same thing. Lets just remove the Liberal Democrats from the picture altogether and just leave the Conservatives as the sole power. Lets just say within the Conservatives there are several black MPs in the government, these several black MPs can make or break the Conservatives holding onto power if the margins are very close. Do you think the Conservative party is going to ignore these black MPs and push them aside.? Of course not, even if they were ALL found to be a racist bunch, which they are not.. There are several ways to add safeguards to make sure that every one's individual rights are protected, but done so without violating others Democratic and Human Rights. The best part is the fact that we are in the EU, which we can use to safeguard our rights. Just as you don't want anyone violating your rights, the same protection must be given to others also, specially to the majority, or else you will have repeat of the problems South Africa had and what Bahrain is facing today. Once you end your Taksim Dreams, is when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel for a better future for the TCs in a Democratic Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Your clarification is only valid if the election results are very close but if this is not the case which is more than likely in a united structure, if the resounding majority being the GCs go for a party which leans towards them then it curtains for any TCs who decide to join or support this particular "political ideology" as they will have very little impact if the situation is manipulated in favor of one particular group. You also place a lot of trust in the EU which we TCs to date have absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust, do you think they will take any notice of us if we complain of power manipulation, they cant manage their own affairs let alone take heed of a few TCs who appose what the majority are doing which is not always right and can be to the detrement of the minority.

As for Taksim dreams they will only fade until we have an alternative which we feel will bebefit us far more greatlythan what we have today, so far we are nowhere near convincing the majority of TCs to commit unless its along the lines of the AP which the GCs reject.

You really need to start to look at it from the TC viewpoint and try to address their concerns rather than dictate so called democracy and human rights which to us is just your way of peddling capitulation of Tcs to GC demands which will guarantee us turning into an insignificant minority in a GC state.

[CBBB]

Your clarification is only valid if the election results are very close but if this is not the case which is more than likely in a united structure, if the resounding majority being the GCs go for a party which leans towards them then it curtains for any TCs who decide to join or support this particular "political ideology" as they will have very little impact if the situation is manipulated in favor of one particular group. You also place a lot of trust in the EU which we TCs to date have absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust, do you think they will take any notice of us if we complain of power manipulation, they cant manage their own affairs let alone take heed of a few TCs who appose what the majority are doing which is not always right and can be to the detrement of the minority.

As for Taksim dreams they will only fade until we have an alternative which we feel will bebefit us far more greatlythan what we have today, so far we are nowhere near convincing the majority of TCs to commit unless its along the lines of the AP which the GCs reject.

You really need to start to look at it from the TC viewpoint and try to address their concerns rather than dictate so called democracy and human rights which to us is just your way of peddling capitulation of Tcs to GC demands which will guarantee us turning into an insignificant minority in a GC state.

Instead of a totally insignificant minority in a much larger Turkish state?

[ZoC]

Your clarification is only valid if the election results are very close but if this is not the case which is more than likely in a united structure, if the resounding majority being the GCs go for a party which leans towards them then it curtains for any TCs who decide to join or support this particular "political ideology" as they will have very little impact if the situation is manipulated in favor of one particular group. You also place a lot of trust in the EU which we TCs to date have absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust, do you think they will take any notice of us if we complain of power manipulation, they cant manage their own affairs let alone take heed of a few TCs who appose what the majority are doing which is not always right and can be to the detrement of the minority.

As for Taksim dreams they will only fade until we have an alternative which we feel will bebefit us far more greatlythan what we have today, so far we are nowhere near convincing the majority of TCs to commit unless its along the lines of the AP which the GCs reject.

You really need to start to look at it from the TC viewpoint and try to address their concerns rather than dictate so called democracy and human rights which to us is just your way of peddling capitulation of Tcs to GC demands which will guarantee us turning into an insignificant minority in a GC state.

Instead of a totally insignificant minority in a much larger Turkish state?

it's not their numbers which make tcs like viewpoint an insignificant minority; it's their viewpoint.