Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

...if self-determination was determined by the T/C to create TRNC then by international law we can clearly declare the state.

Turkish Cypriots DO NOT have self determination rights...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle32.htm

Thanks for the link GR but here is where it gets complicated and why the Turkish Cypriots can call for self-determination. Keep in mind the 1960 constitution that two people founded Cyprus.

Resolution 186 4 March 1964

2. Asks the Government of Cyprus, which has the responsibility for the maintenance and restoration of law and order, to take all additional measures necessary to stop violence and bloodshed in Cyprus.

So as you know from 1963 the Government of Cyprus was administrated by G/C members, you also know that this resolution did not stop the violence and bloodshed for over 11 years. So if the state cannot control the violence within and deprive the rights of a certain community can the community declare self-determination?

Yes they can under international law because the Turkish Cypriots community have been deprived of all rights so it is there own choice of what they do and not be forced to obey by the ‘RoC’ laws instead create there own statehood. As I mentioned in my previous post the only question was Turkish Cypriots who declared self-determination or Turkey? If it is the Turkish Cypriots put it to a referendum then we will determine the answer and a state will be created or not. That is why I said the South plays the balancing act accusing Turkey using force to declare a state then blames the North for not wanting a solution.

But my post was not about Turkey it was about Turkish Cypriots being forgotten in all this mess. But as you said in your website self-determination is a very complex issue and we can be here for months arguing.

I will get to your post to me when I have more time, but in short, if you believe in everything you have written to me and above about the TCs having the right to declare self determination as a founding member of the RoC, specially on others land as a result of Invasion, ethnic cleansing and occupation by a foreign power who swore to protect the integrity of Cyprus territory as a guarantor power, then why is it that the "trnc" is totally unrecognized, except by the invading power and also have sanctions/embargoes/isolation against it, as well as being labelled by the UNSC as an "legally invalid state". Surely if the TCs, Turkey and the "trnc" has the law on their side, there would be two different independent countries in Cyprus by now. Well, we do not, so where does that leave you with your beliefs.?

[Kikapu]

Well, All4All, thats the biggest load of crap you have written yet. Dress it up any way you like, still doesn't make it true.
So you think you have a right to self determination whilst the GCs do not??? You think you have a right to your properties that the GC do not?
You think you have a right to your own state but the GCs do not??

Well, regardless of what Kiks says (and he is right 99% of the time bless hi TC cotton socks), the bottom line is you are all illegals occupying a state illegally and until you are removed, we will always be as we are.

Although I give you an A* for your cunning, spin twisting post.

Mate I was responding from my viewpoint. Of course the G/C have the same rights as the T/C. G/C have as much self-determination as T/C. The G/C have as much right to there property as T/C do. The G/C have the right for there own state if they choose as much as the T/C do. But between me and you I am the one being punished as a citizen. So I am not here arguing and putting myself above any G/C I am only saying that we are both Cypriots but I am the one being punished because I choose to live in the North. So forget about TRNC and Turkey just see me as a average Cypriot who lives on this island but according to the international communtiy I live on the wrong side. Do you think this the right justice on my freedom living in Cyprus?

It is the illegal entity called the "trnc" that is being punished and not the TCs. How is your freedom punished.? What is it that you as a TC cannot get something that a GC can in Cyprus.? Please make a list and lets see what exactly are you being denied for being a TC.?

[Get Real!]

...if self-determination was determined by the T/C to create TRNC then by international law we can clearly declare the state.

Turkish Cypriots DO NOT have self determination rights...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle32.htm

Thanks for the link GR but here is where it gets complicated and why the Turkish Cypriots can call for self-determination. Keep in mind the 1960 constitution that two people founded Cyprus.

Resolution 186 4 March 1964

2. Asks the Government of Cyprus, which has the responsibility for the maintenance and restoration of law and order, to take all additional measures necessary to stop violence and bloodshed in Cyprus.

So as you know from 1963 the Government of Cyprus was administrated by G/C members, you also know that this resolution did not stop the violence and bloodshed for over 11 years. So if the state cannot control the violence within and deprive the rights of a certain community can the community declare self-determination?

Yes they can under international law because the Turkish Cypriots community have been deprived of all rights so it is there own choice of what they do and not be forced to obey by the ‘RoC’ laws instead create there own statehood. As I mentioned in my previous post the only question was Turkish Cypriots who declared self-determination or Turkey? If it is the Turkish Cypriots put it to a referendum then we will determine the answer and a state will be created or not. That is why I said the South plays the balancing act accusing Turkey using force to declare a state then blames the North for not wanting a solution.

But my post was not about Turkey it was about Turkish Cypriots being forgotten in all this mess. But as you said in your website self-determination is a very complex issue and we can be here for months arguing.

You’re making it up as you go along!

You've reached the end of your argument!

[All4114All]

...if self-determination was determined by the T/C to create TRNC then by international law we can clearly declare the state.

Turkish Cypriots DO NOT have self determination rights...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle32.htm

Thanks for the link GR but here is where it gets complicated and why the Turkish Cypriots can call for self-determination. Keep in mind the 1960 constitution that two people founded Cyprus.

Resolution 186 4 March 1964

2. Asks the Government of Cyprus, which has the responsibility for the maintenance and restoration of law and order, to take all additional measures necessary to stop violence and bloodshed in Cyprus.

So as you know from 1963 the Government of Cyprus was administrated by G/C members, you also know that this resolution did not stop the violence and bloodshed for over 11 years. So if the state cannot control the violence within and deprive the rights of a certain community can the community declare self-determination?

Yes they can under international law because the Turkish Cypriots community have been deprived of all rights so it is there own choice of what they do and not be forced to obey by the ‘RoC’ laws instead create there own statehood. As I mentioned in my previous post the only question was Turkish Cypriots who declared self-determination or Turkey? If it is the Turkish Cypriots put it to a referendum then we will determine the answer and a state will be created or not. That is why I said the South plays the balancing act accusing Turkey using force to declare a state then blames the North for not wanting a solution.

But my post was not about Turkey it was about Turkish Cypriots being forgotten in all this mess. But as you said in your website self-determination is a very complex issue and we can be here for months arguing.

I will get to your post to me when I have more time, but in short, if you believe in everything you have written to me and above about the TCs having the right to declare self determination as a founding member of the RoC, specially on others land as a result of Invasion, ethnic cleansing and occupation by a foreign power who swore to protect the integrity of Cyprus territory as a guarantor power, then why is it that the "trnc" is totally unrecognized, except by the invading power and also have sanctions/embargoes/isolation against it, as well as being labelled by the UNSC as an "legally invalid state". Surely if the TCs, Turkey and the "trnc" has the law on their side, there would be two different independent countries in Cyprus by now. Well, we do not, so where does that leave you with your beliefs.?

But see that’s where you must be careful speaking as a Turkish Cypriot and not defining me as part of Turkey that is the exactly what I try to defend here on this forum

specially on others land

. This land was the G/C as much as it was the T/C.

But that’s exactly right Kikapu where the problem begins the law is not on our side while the ‘RoC’ is internationally recognised and using its status with the world turning there backs on the T/C the laws have been swept right underneath our feet on the one hand and on the other hand Turkey plays it’s own laws, between these two nations the T/C are just tools to be used.

But let me take your advantage point if the invading power and occupation by the foreign power is Turkey then why impose sanctions/embargoes/isolation against the T/C direct those resolutions and sanctions on Turkey.

Let me put it in another way for you,
If a bank robbery happens and unfortunately I happen to be in the area I will have to face jail as well with the culprits for doing nothing.

Now don’t get me wrong I will defend Turkey for the events of 1974 and there financial aid into Northern Cyprus although that’s looking not so good at the moment but after 37 years I think it’s safe to return home and I mean the troops so we can take this iron fist off from our island, however we must maintain the healthy relationship with Turkey.

[All4114All]

Well, All4All, thats the biggest load of crap you have written yet. Dress it up any way you like, still doesn't make it true.
So you think you have a right to self determination whilst the GCs do not??? You think you have a right to your properties that the GC do not?
You think you have a right to your own state but the GCs do not??

Well, regardless of what Kiks says (and he is right 99% of the time bless hi TC cotton socks), the bottom line is you are all illegals occupying a state illegally and until you are removed, we will always be as we are.

Although I give you an A* for your cunning, spin twisting post.

Mate I was responding from my viewpoint. Of course the G/C have the same rights as the T/C. G/C have as much self-determination as T/C. The G/C have as much right to there property as T/C do. The G/C have the right for there own state if they choose as much as the T/C do. But between me and you I am the one being punished as a citizen. So I am not here arguing and putting myself above any G/C I am only saying that we are both Cypriots but I am the one being punished because I choose to live in the North. So forget about TRNC and Turkey just see me as a average Cypriot who lives on this island but according to the international communtiy I live on the wrong side. Do you think this the right justice on my freedom living in Cyprus?

It is the illegal entity called the "trnc" that is being punished and not the TCs. How is your freedom punished.? What is it that you as a TC cannot get something that a GC can in Cyprus.? Please make a list and lets see what exactly are you being denied for being a TC.?

There is no need to make a list just one word.

IDENTITY

What do I mean by Identity? Let me explain

When I was living in Australia and working with customers we would sometimes approach the topic as you would in a multicultural society where do your parents come from? Or what is my background?
In all honesty my reply would be ‘Cyprus’
The customers would then have an automatic reaction and say ‘wow so you are Greek’ no joke 8/10 customers would think I am Greek it is until I explain that I am from Northern Cyprus being Turkish. Some customers would say ‘I didn’t know there were Turkish citizens in Cyprus I thought it was a Greek island’ I think some people on this forum would be laughing and living it up right now, but I don’t see the funny side.

So that’s why I fight for the T/C identity and I congratulate some NGO’s out there educating people and you should do the same instead of playing the blame game because it is bad enough that our identity is disappearing and we are about 2 generations away from extinction before mainland Turks take complete control so we don’t need T/C turning there backs on T/C. But you have the right to say what you like I will not stop or deny you.

[All4114All]

...if self-determination was determined by the T/C to create TRNC then by international law we can clearly declare the state.

Turkish Cypriots DO NOT have self determination rights...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle32.htm

Thanks for the link GR but here is where it gets complicated and why the Turkish Cypriots can call for self-determination. Keep in mind the 1960 constitution that two people founded Cyprus.

Resolution 186 4 March 1964

2. Asks the Government of Cyprus, which has the responsibility for the maintenance and restoration of law and order, to take all additional measures necessary to stop violence and bloodshed in Cyprus.

So as you know from 1963 the Government of Cyprus was administrated by G/C members, you also know that this resolution did not stop the violence and bloodshed for over 11 years. So if the state cannot control the violence within and deprive the rights of a certain community can the community declare self-determination?

Yes they can under international law because the Turkish Cypriots community have been deprived of all rights so it is there own choice of what they do and not be forced to obey by the ‘RoC’ laws instead create there own statehood. As I mentioned in my previous post the only question was Turkish Cypriots who declared self-determination or Turkey? If it is the Turkish Cypriots put it to a referendum then we will determine the answer and a state will be created or not. That is why I said the South plays the balancing act accusing Turkey using force to declare a state then blames the North for not wanting a solution.

But my post was not about Turkey it was about Turkish Cypriots being forgotten in all this mess. But as you said in your website self-determination is a very complex issue and we can be here for months arguing.

You’re making it up as you go along!

You've reached the end of your argument!

This is where it gets complex and what has been forgotten, under the international law for statehood the TRNC can exist. International law supports the rights of self-determination, that is why in every resolution condemning the TRNC does not accept the Turkish Cypriots declaring a state or self-determination because they point the finger at Turkey declaring the state but forget about the state being created in regards to the reaction of the national Greek regime leading to 11 years of civil war.

Take into consideration that the TRNC has no legal effect on the Republic, the UN resolution 541 and 550 do not consider the illegal acts that were first performed by the G/C as being the main reason for the establishment of TRNC.

So what I am trying to say GR is that the rights of Turkish Cypriots have been abused. A more simple way to put it under the ‘RoC’ the state was responsible to protect all citizens if a state deprives a certain community rights then the state is held accountable especially in the case of Cyprus where both communities G/C and T/C had equal power sharing. In fact this is ill-treatment on international law which protects human rights and fundamental freedom, if a community is segregated by the state then the community which has been separated has the right for self-determination under international law if the state no longer protects its citizens.

[Kikapu]

I will get to your post to me when I have more time, but in short, if you believe in everything you have written to me and above about the TCs having the right to declare self determination as a founding member of the RoC, specially on others land as a result of Invasion, ethnic cleansing and occupation by a foreign power who swore to protect the integrity of Cyprus territory as a guarantor power, then why is it that the "trnc" is totally unrecognized, except by the invading power and also have sanctions/embargoes/isolation against it, as well as being labelled by the UNSC as an "legally invalid state". Surely if the TCs, Turkey and the "trnc" has the law on their side, there would be two different independent countries in Cyprus by now. Well, we do not, so where does that leave you with your beliefs.?

I'll make this short, or else I won't have time to get to your other post to me.

But see that’s where you must be careful speaking as a Turkish Cypriot and not defining me as part of Turkey that is the exactly what I try to defend here on this forum

specially on others land

. This land was the G/C as much as it was the T/C.

I never define anyone as being part of Turkey, except for the fascists who want to be part of Turkey, who constantly make the claim that they want to return back to their roots.

I'm talking about personal land in the north that 80% belongs to the GCs. Of course the who island belongs to all Cypriots,TCs and GCs as well as other Cypriots, but this does not give any one group to say, 2well, I think I just take this part of Cyprus for myself and leave the rest for others." It doesn't work that way..

But that’s exactly right Kikapu where the problem begins the law is not on our side while the ‘RoC’ is internationally recognised and using its status with the world turning there backs on the T/C the laws have been swept right underneath our feet on the one hand and on the other hand Turkey plays it’s own laws, between these two nations the T/C are just tools to be used.

That's the decision made by the TC leadership at the time to declare the north as "trnc". They knew in advance that the "state" would not have any legitimacy what so ever and Denktash went ahead anyway. Then they locked the doors and threw away the key for the north for the next 30 years while the south with the law on their side went on to prosper. Oh, don't get me wrong, because Denktash and all his cronies did really well for themselves, but at the price paid by the average TCs. Please direct your anger and disgust towards the TCs leadership and not to anyone else.

But let me take your advantage point if the invading power and occupation by the foreign power is Turkey then why impose sanctions/embargoes/isolation against the T/C direct those resolutions and sanctions on Turkey.

Turkey was embargoed for about 2 years when they first invaded Cyprus in 74, but that does not mean that the "trnc" shouldn't be isolated by declaring independence from the RoC illegally. How many more times need you be told that the "trnc" is an illegal entity, therefore penalties are applied accordingly. The TCs are effected as a by-product of that isolation. It is not the TCs who are isolated, but the "trnc". Please don't make me repeat this again.

Let me put it in another way for you,
If a bank robbery happens and unfortunately I happen to be in the area I will have to face jail as well with the culprits for doing nothing.

As long as you are in the area where the robbers are and there is a shootout with the police, there is no guarantee that you will not get shot in a crossfire. Best thing for you to do is to get the hell out of there. However, a lot of people also see the TCs as the getaway driver to the bank robbers, so either way, either they were the driver for the getaway car or an innocent by stander at a place where crime has been committed, they too might get shot during crossfire. They are in fact as I have stated, become involved one way or another in the form of By-product of the Invasion and occupation.

Now don’t get me wrong I will defend Turkey for the events of 1974 and there financial aid into Northern Cyprus although that’s looking not so good at the moment but after 37 years I think it’s safe to return home and I mean the troops so we can take this iron fist off from our island, however we must maintain the healthy relationship with Turkey.

Well, 74 came in two parts. I too defend the intervention to prevent the Junta from Greece to bring about Enosis , but I do not support what followed, which was the Invasion, and neither should anyone else, other than those who wanted to partition Cyprus, the "getaway car driver for the bank robbers". In fact, I wish Turkey came in 63 to sort things out if they had honourable intentions as a guarantor power, but as we have since found out, they did not. They had other "strategic interests" instead. Turkey was not the guarantor just to protect the TCs on the island. They were a guarantor to protect ALL Cypriots as well as maintain the integrity on the RoC. They did neither, which is what makes them an illegal occupying power in Cyprus.

[Kikapu]

It is the illegal entity called the "trnc" that is being punished and not the TCs. How is your freedom punished.? What is it that you as a TC cannot get something that a GC can in Cyprus.? Please make a list and lets see what exactly are you being denied for being a TC.?

There is no need to make a list just one word.

IDENTITY

What do I mean by Identity? Let me explain

When I was living in Australia and working with customers we would sometimes approach the topic as you would in a multicultural society where do your parents come from? Or what is my background?
In all honesty my reply would be ‘Cyprus’
The customers would then have an automatic reaction and say ‘wow so you are Greek’ no joke 8/10 customers would think I am Greek it is until I explain that I am from Northern Cyprus being Turkish. Some customers would say ‘I didn’t know there were Turkish citizens in Cyprus I thought it was a Greek island’ I think some people on this forum would be laughing and living it up right now, but I don’t see the funny side.

So that’s why I fight for the T/C identity and I congratulate some NGO’s out there educating people and you should do the same instead of playing the blame game because it is bad enough that our identity is disappearing and we are about 2 generations away from extinction before mainland Turks take complete control so we don’t need T/C turning there backs on T/C. But you have the right to say what you like I will not stop or deny you.

I would have been very shocked if you did have a list, so please, lets have less of what the TCs are denied of anything. They can have anything the Gcs can have.

As long as a TC wants to remain as a Cypriot, their identity cannot be taken away from them. The choice is yours and mine to make. Is that not the reason why you got the RoC passport to maintain your TC identity, because what ever you got from the "trnc" did not give you your TC identity? When I'm asked where I'm from, I tell them from Cyprus and if they should ask whether I'm GC or a TC, I'll tell them TC. That is no different than persons from Switzerland visiting abroad gets asked where they are from, they too will say "Switzerland" and if asked if they are German, French, Italian or Romansh speaking Swiss, they will tell them what they are without getting offended, even if they assumed to be German speaking, since they are 69% of the Swiss population. I'm not going to get upset just because many people around the world are ignorant of the situation of other countries political situations, specially a small island like Cyprus. I had an American once asked me if I, as a man, was identical with my twin sister. Pure Ignorance. There is nothing you can do about ignorance, other than try and educate them as much as you can, as you did, by telling these ignorant people, that you are a TC and not a GC and not ONLY GCs live on the island. No harm done.

If you want to fight for the TC identity, then you must fight for a Fair and Just solution that will make the TCs as equal citizens as anyone else in Cyprus. Nothing more and nothing less. This is the ONLY way you can retain your TC identity. The "trnc" does not protect that for you. ONLY the RoC can do that for you. "trnc citizenship" is just that, it has no meaning and no substance. It might as well not exists, which it doesn't, in the eyes of the world. The only ones who are turning their backs on the TCs, are the Fascists TCs who want to become part of Turkey. I'm not one of those people, so please do not include me for turning my back on the TCs. In fact, I want the most for the TCs, but ONLY for Cyprus under Democratic, Human Rights, International law and the EU Principles. So far they have chosen Annan plan which does not support the above principles. Lets hope next time around, the TCs will.

[Kikapu]

Well, All4All, thats the biggest load of crap you have written yet. Dress it up any way you like, still doesn't make it true.
So you think you have a right to self determination whilst the GCs do not??? You think you have a right to your properties that the GC do not?
You think you have a right to your own state but the GCs do not??

Well, regardless of what Kiks says (and he is right 99% of the time bless hi TC cotton socks), the bottom line is you are all illegals occupying a state illegally and until you are removed, we will always be as we are.

Although I give you an A* for your cunning, spin twisting post.

Well, regardless of what Kiks says (and he is right 99% of the time bless hi TC cotton socks)

The other one percent is the information I sometimes use from the Turkish media or Halil.!

[All4114All]

Kikapu,

I will conclude my arguement with you under this topic not that I have nothing more to say but we will go on forever in circles and we might be on the same path but traveling in different directions but at the end we arrive at the same destination point. I certainly understand you and where you stand and as I said before if we can drop the TRNC tommorow and embrace the RoC it would be the biggest party ever and I hope if we see that day you will come to Cyprus to celebrate with us. I am no facist T/C that wants any part of Cyprus to become a province of Turkey so I do not associate myself with that social group.

The last thing I will leave you with is that as long as the TRNC is illegal as you say then you surely must agree the RoC is illegal claiming it's status internationally. Now I will defend my passport because Cyprus as one was the homeland for both G/C and T/C however as I said before the salvation at the current moment is North. Now if the South president comes out tommorow and sets new special guidelines within the constitution, laws, security everything the T/C are asking for then you can accuse me of living in the North.