There is no way you could be a T/C in your response to my post and I will elaborate why in my reply. However I will respond to your post as direct and clear as I can be so there is no further miscommunication.
Kikapu wrote:
I believe the GCs are "vengeful" ONLY towards Turkey and the "trnc", because if it was towards the TCs in general, the TCs wouldn't dare to go the south what so ever. Last time I looked, the TCs do go the the south on their own free will, do they not, for all sorts of reason and they all come back alive and well back to the north when ever they want to. The "trnc" is an illegal entity created by Turkey on land that belongs to Cypriots, so what's there not to feel vengeful towards those institutions. The fact that TCs choose to live in the illegal entity called the "trnc", they are then too effected by the GCs "vengefulness" towards it as a by-product. When the TCs on their own free will place themselves in that situation, then they will then have to accept the risks that goes with it, that the "trnc" will be embargoed and isolated, not that it means that the TCs cannot get anything they want in the north, because you know very well, that they can. Can you tell me something that the TCs cannot get to have in the north, directly or through Turkey or the RoC.?? In any case, in time, the EU will get rid of Turkey from Cyprus one way or another. Once Turkey's economy really ties in with the EU's, then the EU will use that against Turkey to get the results it wants. Time is not on Turkey's side when it comes to Cyprus.
Before I start, you need to understand were I stand my heart and soul is for a united Cyprus may it be under the ‘RoC’ or another name to this island united, that is why I defend in having an EU passport, Cyprus is my homeland. If tomorrow we can remove TRNC and embrace the RoC great I will be out in the streets celebrating
BUT! However this ‘RoC’ does not administrate me or my fellow citizens internationally or domestically nor does any other party in the South as much as they smile every time they show compassion deep down the dividing line lives on in each and every government of the South. So the fact that T/C choose to live under the TRNC does not necessarily mean we are here sticking up our fingers to the South in a childish game ‘look at what I got’. The TRNC is the only safe zone we have until a settlement is reached for the ‘RoC’ to represent the Turkish Cypriot community your vision (BBF plan) is almost suggesting to drop everything and welcome the ‘RoC’ administration over the top of us with small safeguards which can be manipulated on who has the larger population. In respect I don’t care about EU, UN, UK, USA, Turkey, Greece and South Cyprus because until today not one of them have stood up and represented the Turkish Cypriot rights or recognition on this island. So Kikapu there is no step forward until someone gives the community full support and there is no step back I have quoted before we are between a rock and a hard place. So don’t put blame on the T/C that they choose to live in the TRNC until you see a guarantee future for your brothers and sisters here. You will not get one T/C expressing anger for the events which happened in 1974 that is why the ‘free will’ you suggest was not imposed by T/C asking Turkey to come and divide this island it was outside nations including the G/C who divided this island.
Now I turn my attention to your illegal entity until today there has been no proven facts if it was Turkey’s move or the self-determination of the T/C and I tell you now that this has been the struggle and determination of South Cyprus allegations to put blame on Turkey itself, because if self-determination was determined by the T/C to create TRNC then by international law we can clearly declare the state.
So the South plays a balancing act it is Turkey who created the state but it is the North who does not want peace deal. Before I go further I would like include this from your post because it will tie it all together;
Kikapu wrote: I can't follow your above statement and argument....sorry. In short, what gives the RoC a complete sovereignty over all of Cyprus are the relevant UNSC resolutions, as well as acceptance of the whole island with the RoC having complete sovereignty over all of Cyprus into the EU membership. On the other hand, what legitimacy is given to the "trnc" that you can list for us, other than 40,000 Turkish Troops. Take away the troops and the "trnc" wouldn't last more than 5 minutes.
TRNC has only become an illegal entity because the G/C administration used its powers to make sure that no division which they were responsible for can become of Cyprus. If your wise enough you will know that partition did not happen in 1974 but on 13 March 1964 (this was the true begining of the divide) when the first UN peacekeeping troops arrived in Cyprus from the request of the Government which in 1963 the ‘RoC’ administration was violated however G/C kept there posts and gained there first international recognition from the UN. So it marked the beginning of no return and the second massive partition stamp was the EU acceptance of the South State two major mistakes.
So lets look at these resolutions the main ones of course to bring my point forward;
Resolution 367 12/03/1975
“Having considered the situation in Cyprus in response to the complaint submitted by the Government of the Republic of Cyprus.”
So having stated the above this resolution was passed in 1975. Now in 1963 the ‘RoC’ was no longer it was only represented by G/C cabinet members so the above disregards the Turkish Cypriots and self-right but accepts the administration which is illegally using its status without any T/C cabinet members. So how can the RoC call upon the illegality of the Turkish State when the RoC was destroyed in 1963?
Resolution 541 & 550
The two resolutions did not follow in accordance to the London & Zurich Accords and the original 1960 constitution which supports that Turkish Cypriots are the co-founder of Cyprus. Taking this into account it also does not take into acceptance that T/C rights of self-determination and sovereignty that were also the citizens of this island.
Turkey’s intervention was legal under humanitarian intervention to protect human rights and did not break any international law and it was also one of the Guardianship powers of Cyprus. So why does Resolution 550 states
‘Turkey and Northern Cyprus and considering all attempts to interfere with the United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus contrary to Security Council resolutions’
If it did not break any international law and had rights to intervene for the rights of T/C then how can it be interfering with UNFICYP when they did nothing to stop the violence for over 11 years?
So do we TRNC have the right for statehood? Well under international law there are 4 points to consider;
1. Define Territory
2. Population
3. Sovereign State
4. Ability to maintain international relations (although restricted)
TRNC ticks all these 4 points, now if your going to call the North illegal than the South is also illegal because it claims to control the whole island but yet the government has no control on 37% of the island so it goes two ways here.
But there is one question pending still and I know you are thinking of it for my entire post is that North Cyprus state was created on illegal lands belonging to G/C that has to be against International Law it is an occupation state?
Great question.
Answer?
TRNC sovereign state was based on the right of its people to self-determination. But everyone from UN to South Cyprus just forgets about T/C and what they suffered. It is this overall education that is required to understand where we are today so we don’t repeat it tomorrow.
But there is another question which is the essence of all arguments was the TRNC created by the Turkish military force? If this is true than my argument is void, but as I stated above that the humanitarian intervention did not breach any international law in fact had the effect of creating a sovereign state for the Turkish Cypriots Citizens who again as I argued above was the co founder of the island under London and Zurich Treaty and 1960 constitution so with self determination of T/C with the TA to restore international peace and security a divided state was created which did not void international law.
Now your last question will be who actually claimed right for self-determination T/C or Turkey because we might have been out numbered in 1983? Well I can’t answer for anyone and I can’t make assumptions here but while this question lingers it is again the relentless effort by the South blaming Turkey for independence of North Cyprus, if it is found the T/C wanted self-determination well bye unity.
So I’ll explain to you how this all came about, these two resolutions are merely ‘tools’ and not under any legal entity causing isolation and exclusions to T/C. Because these resolutions were not created by international law but by Georgios Kyriakou Iacovou he called the Turkish Invasion an act of aggression. He never argues or thinks that the T/C were forced into enclaves and suffered for 11 years before Turkey intervene nor he argues the T/C existence for self-determination. Another example of Greece and G/C governments suppressing T/C.
So I hope I made you understand that these resolutions are a BY-PRODUCT of G/C government and not the TRNC state declaring it ‘illegal’ or a ‘by-product’. Now don’t forget I am not supporting a divide here as I stated above unity is what we need and a RoC is what I’ll support but until I do show my support we all have a few things to get clear before we embrace our lives under one federation. Everything I wrote above can be verified if you read the resolution or international laws carefully in regards to Cyprus and North State.
Kikapu wrote: BBF does not mean a complete homogeneous TCs north and complete homogeneous GC south. No, it does not. What it means that the majority on the north state should be TCs and the majority of the south should be GCs. The same goes with land ownership. It also does not state what the territory size ought to be, so in order to accommodate the above, the state in the north needs to be reduced and the south state needs to be increased. But do not forget, this agreement was made in the late 70's and had it been implemented back then, we wouldn't be having the problems today with that concept of BBF back then, with the BBF of today, with the added EU Principles since 2004. Regardless of who did not want to implement the 70's concept of BBF then, be it be Makarios or Denktash, is no longer an issue, because we now have a new ball game in our hands, which Democracy, Human Rights, International Law and EU Principles has also evolved to become part of the BBF of today. Time Does Not Stand Still. Those are the tools we need to apply today to any BBF settlement, which is what I do, and not to BBF that has long past it's due date back in the 70's.
Since 2004, the actual meaning of BBF has also changed, but not it's concept. As the saying goes, "you snooze, you lose". The TCs should have pushed for the original BBF in the 70's when it might have been possible to implement it the way they want it today, but then again, it was the understanding by the TCs then, that 1974 had solved the Cyprus problem once and for all. All they had to do was to declare Independence of the north and just sit and wait to become recognised. Obviously that has not been the case then, nor is it today. I can understand why the "trnc" now wants a Confederation settlement over a Federal one, but regardless of change of time, BBF stands as the original agreement with it's very ambiguous interpretations, which the GCs will push to include all the EU Principles to any BBF settlement today, which will make the settlement look much different than had a BBF settlement took place in the 70's. In the meantime, the TCs cannot even ask to go back to the original 1960 agreements unless the GC also agree to it, because they had already agreed to on the BBF. This is a double whammy for the TCs. They can't go back and they can't go forward, and being in the middle of nothing, is where they find themselves with, which is nothing.
I give you a simple answer to your BBF 70’s agreement there was no agreement it was only a suggestion or a goal for both sides which was spoken about there was never an agreement on the definition of these core terms. Today we have a much wider gap in division and trust issues to implement what may have been simpler in the 70’s. Although I might not agree this is providing a true united Cyprus, if this is the only light at the end of the tunnel then I will support it.
Kikapu wrote: Your mothers land is still in Cyprus and not the "trnc". This is what you need to remember if you want to honour your parents and your grand parents and all the members of your family tree in Cyprus. The fact that your mothers land sits in the "trnc", it is still part of the RoC. The moment you see the "trnc" as another country independent from the RoC, you are effectively abdicating your Cypriotness, despite the fact that you mentioned recently that you have gotten yourself an RoC/EU passport. You need to keep things in prospective, and your use of North Cyprus and South Cyprus tells me that you are being influenced by the Fascist's in the north who want partition and not unity. Words do have meanings, so use them carefully if you do not want to be misunderstood.
Correct Cyprus was my mother’s homeland until Cyprus was destroyed in 1963 and TRNC became the new home. So I fight for Cyprus from home, because my cause will go unheard if I decided to join the ‘RoC’ and then demonstrate against the government I can even be jailed. I don't see TRNC as another country I see it as sovereign state in Cyprus until a settlement is reached or not reached. You must see it as a determination of T/C society forming a statehood for survival until a solution is founded. Now you can clearly see that protests have taken place not only for austerity packages but the next phase which is reunification because the T/C citizens want freedom, recognition, self-rights and independence they do not fight to uphold the TRNC. So I call Cyprus home as many do but TRNC is my salvation until a solution, however my salvation is being abused by Turkey and South Cyprus onto the T/C. Homeland is one thing salvation is another home.
Kikapu wrote: Here is another word you should be very careful on how you use it, "Exchanged Property". With whom did your family exchange their land in the south with the GCs properties they claim to be theirs in the north today.? Well, the answer is, with the "trnc", who basically claimed all the GCs properties as being theirs. In another words, stolen GC properties gotten by the Turkish Army. So, No, your family does not live in their own property in the north in GCs properties due to "Exchange" with their property in the south. They are living in a stolen GC properties if they claim those properties to be theirs now. Now, don't confuse that with TC refugees from the south living in the GCs properties in the north as a means to have a roof over their heads until a settlement can be reached. I have family members who also claim GCs properties in the north as theirs due to "exchange", and I will tell them the same thing as I will tell your family, that they are all committing "Sins of Haram" and that nothing good will come out of such situation, other than the "trnc" being a "Corrupted Society" from top to all the way down to the common man on the street.
I do not put the blame on the shoulders of the average TCs for the predicament they find themselves in now, because most of the blame goes to the likes of Fascist Denktash and all the other so called leaders they had/have in the north. But the longer the average TC remains quiet and do not challenge their leaders for a better future with a settlement based on Democracy and Human rights, they will not be able to free themselves from where they are now, which is, nothing. The Arabs have finally woken up to what their dictator leaders have done to them, which has been very little, so lets hope that the TCs will too wake up also. I'm doing my part to help them wake up, the rest is up to them and yourself.!
I will not comment so much on your second paragraph because I agree about the fight for survival and for people to wake up.
I think we have agreed on something else here let me explain a true story. A family (no relation to me) from Turkey arrived here after 1974 and were given G/C home and land in Esentepe near Kyrenia about 10-8 years ago the area was becoming a boom area for development so they sold off the house and land for over 500,000tl so they arrived with $0 was given everything and got rich. This makes me frustrated and angry as a Cypriot that such a thing can happen.
However at the same time while the South continues its economic growth and wealth the North can not stand still until a solution is found if that was the case after 37 years we will still be in the rock age. We have to move forward build society to whatever tools we are given the South never stood still to wait for a settlement why should we.
So under the TRNC yes everything in the North was claimed but however not as much as the South representing the RoC while violating T/C human rights. That’s why I made the comment how valuable can property value be in comparison to human life being exploited.
How can you argue to someone about being a refugee from the South leaving property moving to the North with nothing and was given a house to live in? What did you expect them to do live in a tent until they afforded there own home? However where I would agree with you is to exploit the G/C property to sell it for your own riches. But don’t forget T/C properties and lands have been exploited already. Take Maras for example many G/C registered title deeds under there name after 1974 because RoC became the legal entity and the North the illegal entity.
If anything what we did wrong was actually put a name on this state, but after being ejected from the RoC we needed a state that will represent the T/C since the RoC would not.
In conclusion I will embrace RoC if a fair settlement is achieved however until that time which seems it will never come I will embrace TRNC as my home and if the G/C feel vengeful for me being here under TRNC well maybe those G/C should look in the mirror and ask the question, was it worth it?
So please Kikapu forget about politics, outsiders and every single country that has had some influence in the Cyprus problem and just sit back and think about being a true T/C who has been erased by every single nation. That is the fight I am fighting for T/C recognition, self-rights and independence no matter how it comes about because until today no one has given any credit or thought to us. If you believe this is a lost fight then Ill go down trying supporting my brothers and sisters but however I will not give up until the last T/C stands on this earth. That is the passion you need to spark up and be a true Turkish Cypriot and defend your citizens when people on this forum attack.
I just said he/she made valid points although I have not had that many posts you will see that I do not defend everything VP writes.
