Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

read the book with open mind vp and i believe you will agree with it . as i agree with our faults
http://vimeo.com/4092804

The conclusion in the video is very telling. In 1963/64 Cypriots could have sorted the problem, but for the external influences. Especially the UK an the US with their foreign policies. Since then we both have suffered. One side more than the other, but what does it matter who suffered most.

[denizaksulu]

read the book with open mind vp and i believe you will agree with it . as i agree with our faults
http://vimeo.com/4092804

I have listened to this guy before hes biased and a paid agent of the GCs.

You surprise me by your ignorance VP. Had you read the book yould never had called him biased. I suggest you read it and understand what the major is saying.

[antifon]

read the book with open mind vp and i believe you will agree with it . as i agree with our faults
http://vimeo.com/4092804

I have listened to this guy before hes biased and a paid agent of the GCs.

You surprise me by your ignorance VP. Had you read the book yould never had called him biased. I suggest you read it and understand what the major is saying.

We can all have our ideas. I am not saying you have to agree with mine.

I know though deep in my heart that we can agree if left alone in a room, in Greek we'd say, να ψυχαναλυθούμε (na psihanalithUme), or to explore each other's souls!

Who knows, once we come out and announce our agreement they [foreighers] may blast us to oblivion or start laughing or both. But at least it will be a Cypriot answer to the mess!


How proud I am that you are a Cypriot!

http://antifon.blogspot.com

[quattro]

Is it too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas provided that:

a. Turkey will come under extreme pressures to remove herself from Cyprus
b. Turkey will face growing TC opposition as their fear of extinction grows
c. Greek Cypriots will never agree a federation on a 1960 "equality" logic

Read Makarios' ideas in 1963, together with his reasoning. In my view, the document constitutues a visionary statement, perhaps even to form the basis for the solution to Turkey's 87 year old internal conflict between its majority ethnic Turk and minority ethnic Kurd communities.

SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963)
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

My opinion:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/tri ... hobia.html


http://antifon.blogspot.com
.
Thank you.

Anti going back to 1960 is something ,but we have to negotiate the 13teen points with tCs and my believe is that those point cause all the mess .

[antifon]

Is it too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas provided that:

a. Turkey will come under extreme pressures to remove herself from Cyprus
b. Turkey will face growing TC opposition as their fear of extinction grows
c. Greek Cypriots will never agree a federation on a 1960 "equality" logic

Read Makarios' ideas in 1963, together with his reasoning. In my view, the document constitutues a visionary statement, perhaps even to form the basis for the solution to Turkey's 87 year old internal conflict between its majority ethnic Turk and minority ethnic Kurd communities.

SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963)
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

My opinion:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/tri ... hobia.html


http://antifon.blogspot.com
.
Thank you.

Anti going back to 1960 is something ,but we have to negotiate the 13teen points with tCs and my believe is that those point cause all the mess .

As a matter of fact no, 1960 itself was the pandora's box (η αιτία), with 1963 being simply the excuse (η αφορμή). Makarios' 1963 proposed ideas ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html ) were an attempt to surpass unworkability issues and promote unity as opposed taksim.

In other words, how one views the November 30th 1963 ideas depends what the vision is. If it is TAKSIM, i.e. separation, then it is bad because the entire 13 points try to promote unification, the exact opposite of what the tCypriot leadership/Turkey were aiming for at the time & still do.

Of course, point#1 alone of the 13 [a tragic choice of number for the superstitios; he could have easily added a 14th that fathers of all newborns be automatically eligible for season tickets to their favorite team], is enough to scare the vast majority of tCypriots away. I would be apprehensive too if I were a tCypriot. There should be various specific issues where tCypriots should have veto powers, hopefully to come out on the negotiation table. But a veto across the board was preposterous, and would be even more so today with Cyprus a member of the EU.

The document was never discussed. It was not a take-it-or-leave it proposition. Unfortunately, just as is the case today, it was even worse then, we were speaking not with tCypriots but indirectly to Turkey by proxy and its fascist establishments.

See relevant Wikileaks revelation ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/wik ... osses.html ) which, if we are to believe Wikileaks, proves that today we speak to Eroglu who in turn speaks to Erdogan who in turn indirectly answers to the generals! Some democracy for you!

http://antifon.blogspot.com

.

[quattro]

Is it too late for Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the 1963 ideas provided that:

a. Turkey will come under extreme pressures to remove herself from Cyprus
b. Turkey will face growing TC opposition as their fear of extinction grows
c. Greek Cypriots will never agree a federation on a 1960 "equality" logic

Read Makarios' ideas in 1963, together with his reasoning. In my view, the document constitutues a visionary statement, perhaps even to form the basis for the solution to Turkey's 87 year old internal conflict between its majority ethnic Turk and minority ethnic Kurd communities.

SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR FACILITATING THE SMOOTH FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE AND FOR THE REMOVAL OF CERTAIN CAUSES OF INTER- COMMUNAL FRICTION (1963)
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

My opinion:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/tri ... hobia.html


http://antifon.blogspot.com
.
Thank you.

Anti going back to 1960 is something ,but we have to negotiate the 13teen points with tCs and my believe is that those point cause all the mess .

As a matter of fact no, 1960 itself was the pandora's box (η αιτία), with 1963 being simply the excuse (η αφορμή). Makarios' 1963 proposed ideas ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html ) were an attempt to surpass unworkability issues and promote unity as opposed taksim.

In other words, how one views the November 30th 1963 ideas depends what the vision is. If it is TAKSIM, i.e. separation, then it is bad because the entire 13 points try to promote unification, the exact opposite of what the tCypriot leadership/Turkey were aiming for at the time & still do.

Of course, point#1 alone of the 13 [a tragic choice of number for the superstitios; he could have easily added a 14th that fathers of all newborns be automatically eligible for season tickets to their favorite team], is enough to scare the vast majority of tCypriots away. I would be apprehensive too if I were a tCypriot. There should be various specific issues where tCypriots should have veto powers, hopefully to come out on the negotiation table. But a veto across the board was preposterous, and would be even more so today with Cyprus a member of the EU.

The document was never discussed. It was not a take-it-or-leave it proposition. Unfortunately, just as is the case today, it was even worse then, we were speaking not with tCypriots but indirectly to Turkey by proxy and its fascist establishments.

See relevant Wikileaks revelation ( http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/01/wik ... osses.html ) which, if we are to believe Wikileaks, proves that today we speak to Eroglu who in turn speaks to Erdogan who in turn indirectly answers to the generals! Some democracy for you!

http://antifon.blogspot.com

.

thanks for your reply antifon
i will resume reading now

[DTA]

Antifon were the 63 amendments not part of the akridas plan, have you even read the akridas plan?

[Viewpoint]

Antifon you speak as if the Akritas was not the root of all evil did you know that makarios wanted to force us to accept his power grab before we were allowed to take our rightful seats in parliament.

[zan]

Keep reading antifon, soon you will come across ALL the OTHER involved parties. At least Turkey had clear interests in Cyprus.

They, The Gcs and Greece, had clear instructions, in the Akritas plan, on the action necessary to DEAL with any opposition to the 13 points. They clearly knew what was coming. It is also clear that the 13 points were not the desired end to the matter.

[antifon]

Antifon were the 63 amendments not part of the akridas plan, have you even read the akridas plan?

63 amendments? You mean 13, right?


The constitutional structure of the Republic of Cyprus which resulted from the 1960 Zurich and London Agreements suffered from fundamental defects which impeded the smooth functioning of the State.

The fact that the Constitution did not emanate from the free will of the Cyprus people but was imposed upon them by virtue of the agreements was at the origin of feelings of discontent among Cypriots. Moreover many of the constitutional provisions conflicted with international law e.g. the fact that the Constitution could not be amended, rendering the Republic of Cyprus subject to the will of the guarantor powers and depriving it of the fundamental requirements of the state such as internal independence and territorial supremacy.

Other provisions promoting communal segregation prevented the smooth functioning and development of the country and created permanent sources of friction between Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

The ratio of participation in the public service attaining 30 per cent for the Turkish Cypriot community (which represented 18 per cent of the population) constituted one of the causes of discontent for Greek Cypriots as it offended the international accepted principle of the right of everyone of equal access to the public service of his country.

The constitutional provision relating to separate majorities for the enactment of certain laws in the House of Representatives was another source of serious problems affecting the smooth functioning of the state which was left without any taxation legislation for several months.

Another element that created problems was the right of final veto accorded to the President and the Vice-President of the Republic against any law or decision both in the House of Representatives and the Council of Ministers.

Faced with this complex situation, the President of the Republic Archbishop Makarios III, by his letter of 30 November 1963 to the Vice President, suggested a series of measures to facilitate the smooth functioning of the State and remove certain causes of intercommunal friction.


http://antifon.blogspot.com/2010/12/pre ... osals.html

In his proposed amendments, President Makarios attempted to abolish the dividing elements of the Constitutions that kept Greek and Turkish Cypriots apart, fostering conflict and intolerance and replace them with provisions that would promote the wellbeing of the people of Cyprus as a whole.

The thirteen points set forth by President Makarios in his letter provided, inter alia, for the abolishment of the President's and Vice President's right of veto (Point 1), and for the election of both the Greek President of the House of Representatives and its Turkish Vice-President by the House as a whole and not by separate majorities (Point 3).

They also provided for the establishment of unified municipalities and for the unification of the administration of justice (Point 6). Other points were the following, The numerical strength of the Security Forces and of the Defence Forces should be determined by a Law (Point 9), and, The proportion of Greek and Turkish Cypriots in the composition of the Public Service should be modified in proportion to the ratio of the population of Greek and Turkish Cypriots (Point 10).

The Turkish (!!!!) Government immediately rejected the proposals before the Turkish Cypriot community had commented on them.

A few weeks later, on 21st December 1963 intercommunal fighting broke out.


Makarios did not hide. Everything was out in the open.

Do you have any proof that the President was directly involved in the formation of the Akritas plan and its sinister parts?

No one needed any plan to know that the 1960 constitution was hugely unjust and despite the good will exhibited by gCypriots Turkey (by proxy) rendered unworkable its implementation, since its "vision" was TAKSIM all along. Makarios was faced with an almost impossible situation trying to bridge the positions of the nationalists from both sides. In the end he acted alone as amply described above.

Unfortunately the tCypriot nationalists were nothing more than useful pawns for Turkey's partitionist designs.