Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1021835.stm
1975 - Turkish Cypriots establish independent administration, with Rauf Denktash as president. Denktash and Clerides agree population exchange.

Then it was a population exchange agreed by both sides rather than ethnic cleansing?

The reference by the BBC is to the Agreement by Mssrs Cleridees and Donktosh in talks in Geneva in the Summer of 1975. A whole year after the Invasion.

The overwhelming bulk of displacement of people from their homes in the Occupied North happened within hours and days of the Illegal Invasion of 20 July 1974.

In many, many cases people in whole villages were thrown out of their homes and sent to Areas of Confinement, kept in poor conditions, many sleeping rough in fields within sight of their empty homes, others in atrocious conditions in places like the Dome Hotel in Kyrenia and Pavlides Garage in Nic, and denied access to third-party help such as the Red Cross.

Then consider what is an essential element of ethnic cleansing... the terrifying fear brought about in whole communities by murders, massacres and other atrocities... a fear that caused many, many people to pack what they could carry, which was often just the children, and flee by whatever way they could to the Free Areas within a few days of the Invasion.

So all in all it has practically bugger all nothing whatsoever to do with the Geneva "Population Exchange" Agreement" that was agreed a whole year later.

I agree with Bill...Not many people needed much forcing to leave their homes and seek shelter in secure areas...This was exactly what happened to the TCs during 63-74 era...It was fear induced by murders and attrocities,plus the odd fullscale massacre...10s of thousands of TCs left their homes and villages...because of the sheer terror for their lives...But until our GC friends here admit this and condemn the ethnic cleansing of the TCs during the 60s,they have no moral right to talk about what happened during the 70s...Come clean,admit,repent...then we can reciprocate,and perhaps find some empathy and compassion for each others plight...This cannot be achieved by onesided accusations and misinformation campaigns...But,on second thought, I fear it is too late anyway...Erdogan is now talking about the Turkish blood shed during the 74 'peace' operation!!! That is all we need...

Should I remind you that ethnic cleansing was your aim from the 1950s and that you are the ones who collaborated with the foreign imperialists, and initiated the conflict by attacking and massacring innocent Cypriot people, in your effort to regain the privileges you had on our expense during your oppressive rule of our island?

Don't try to play the "who started" game with me, because it is crystal clear who did. It is the Turks who keep invading our island in their effort to exploit Cyprus and its people and deny from us our freedom.

The only thing we ever fought for was freedom and democracy. You never accepted this, as you think of yourselves not as an ethnic minority that you really are, but as the Ottoman overlords who should decide the destiny of this island against the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people.

Had the Turks wished to 'ethnically cleanse' Cyprus, they could have done it during the Ottoman period. Only because of Enosis the idea came up to partition the island. Please dont give us the diatribe about 'your God given right of self determination at he expense of the 'Musulman' population of Cyprus.

...and yes, ethnic cleansing was the result of these ideas. Are you happy now?

Ethnic Cleansing in Cyprus was a Turkish idea in the 50s. Invading Cyprus and oppressing us was again a Turkish idea, even before that.

Self-determination is our right and it is not on the "expense" of the Muslim minority in Cyprus. Your minority in Cyprus can have what every other minority in every other country has. Nothing less and nothing more.

Will you ever stop making the same laughable arguments,Piratis???

We are in this mess now because of your ENOSIS with Greece dream as Deniz pointed out,and we are sinking deeper and deeper into the shit that the idiotic attempt to give away our homeland has created...Everyone except yourself and a few diehard EOKA sympatisers know which community was ethnically cleansed and when...So stop pretending milk is black,admit your mistakes like a man,repent and apologise...We might even forgive you..

Sure, when the Turks were butchering Cypriots by the 10s of thousands and were oppressing us there was no problem, and the problem started only when we, along with all other Greeks, revolted seeking our freedom

The problem for the Cypriots was the foreign oppression. Liberated and being part of a free Greek state was the solution to the problems the Turks and other foreign imperialists created to us.

But obviously the Ottoman rule was not a problem for you, since you had gains on our expense. Your problem only started when the native people revolted seeking their freedom, because our freedom meant that you would lose the privileges you had on our expense.

Yes, everybody knows who had ethnic cleansing as an aim and who created conflicts and wars in order to achieve this aim. It really couldn't be more obvious.

Even until this day you support ethnic cleansing just like you did since the 50s, because you want to have some "Turkish State" in Cyprus and the ONLY way you can have this is by ethnically cleansing GCs.

Laughable.

Last week some forumer posted links to the History of Cyprus. The Sultan had to send an army to Cyprus to quell a rebellion by the Musulman population of Cyprus. Further, Some Ottoman military leasers were excuted on the wish of the then Greek Orthodox archbishop. But you know all this dont you Piratis - please carry on playing the same old, same old tune. We are enjoying it big time.
The oppression was against the whole of the island and not the Greeks. The rebellions were carried out by the 'Musulmans'.

It is well known that the Muslims had many privileges. The Christians had to pay many more taxes and they were treated like second category people and not even their testimony was accepted in courts!

Beyond that if the Muslims wanted even more rights, that is not unlikely at all. We see how TCs "revolt" today, not to support our human and democratic rights which they are happy to violate, but because they want even more for themselves.

Read the following then come back to me. Pay particular attention to pages 70 - 78 and the rest. Most of the sources are GO clergy and other GC sources.

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=Evl ... an&f=false

Dont dare call it Turkish propaganda.

[BirKibrisli]

I don't know why we waste our time with Piratis,Deniz yegen.

The person who said 'THERE IS NO ONE AS BLIND AS SOMEONE WHO REFUSES TO SEE' must've had Piratis in mind...

[denizaksulu]

I don't know why we waste our time with Piratis,Deniz yegen.

The person who said 'THERE IS NO ONE AS BLIND AS SOMEONE WHO REFUSES TO SEE' must've had Piratis in mind...

Hmmm!!! he needs glasses as well then.

[Piratis]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

[BirKibrisli]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

Those quotes are probably from anti_Turkish propaganda sites...Or perhaps you have made them up! Everybody knows the Ottomans were very kind to everyone who did not challenge their rule...

[denizaksulu]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

They invaded and 'oppressed, yes. But it was the Christians and the 'Musulmans' that was oppressed. You keep on harping about the GC being the only ones oppressed and blaming the TCs for oppressing GCs (Ottoman times) rather than the Authorities. If you read my link and as verified by Greek (Cypriot or Greek Greek I know not) scholars - the GO Church had a great part in oppressing the populace - thus gaining lands and riches. We do not want you to be selective in what you write.

Read my link and you will see that the opening of the Greek School in Cyprus was approved by the Porte after visitations by the Greek Orthodox clergy. I find that very oppressive. As to the executions of the notables and the higher clergy, blame that on the 1821 revolution in the Balkans and the corruption of the Greek clergy. I am not saying they deserved to die, but read the link, those 'Musulmans' that stood up to the Porte were also executed. If you want to be fair, do not pick and choose. Does not do you any good. It only results in Partitionistas to come up with similar ridiculous allegations.

[Piratis]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

Those quotes are probably from anti_Turkish propaganda sites...Or perhaps you have made them up! Everybody knows the Ottomans were very kind to everyone who did not challenge their rule...

It is from the USA Library of Congress

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... +cy0017%29

[Piratis]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

They invaded and 'oppressed, yes. But it was the Christians and the 'Musulmans' that was oppressed. You keep on harping about the GC being the only ones oppressed and blaming the TCs for oppressing GCs (Ottoman times) rather than the Authorities. If you read my link and as verified by Greek (Cypriot or Greek Greek I know not) scholars - the GO Church had a great part in oppressing the populace - thus gaining lands and riches. We do not want you to be selective in what you write.

Read my link and you will see that the opening of the Greek School in Cyprus was approved by the Porte after visitations by the Greek Orthodox clergy. I find that very oppressive. As to the executions of the notables and the higher clergy, blame that on the 1821 revolution in the Balkans and the corruption of the Greek clergy. I am not saying they deserved to die, but read the link, those 'Musulmans' that stood up to the Porte were also executed. If you want to be fair, do not pick and choose. Does not do you any good. It only results in Partitionistas to come up with similar ridiculous allegations.

Deniz, the Ottomans oppressed everybody, but the native non-Muslim populations far more. This is a fact, which is why a minority of Christians were forced to become Muslims at that time. Did the high ranking members of the GO Church help the Ottomans? Yes they did. Those who didn't ended up dead, like Kyprianos in 1821.

The one who is selective is you. On one hand you want to disassociate yourselves from the actions of Ottomans and Turkey, but at the same time you want to keep the whole GC population responsible for the coup created by the Athens junta.

And about the Ottomans allowing some Greek school, are we supposed to be grateful for this? Your minority of 18% wants 50% power, 30% of civil servants, Turkish official language etc etc, and we should be happy because you allowed us to have a school???

[quattro]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1021835.stm
1975 - Turkish Cypriots establish independent administration, with Rauf Denktash as president. Denktash and Clerides agree population exchange.

Then it was a population exchange agreed by both sides rather than ethnic cleansing?

The reference by the BBC is to the Agreement by Mssrs Cleridees and Donktosh in talks in Geneva in the Summer of 1975. A whole year after the Invasion.

The overwhelming bulk of displacement of people from their homes in the Occupied North happened within hours and days of the Illegal Invasion of 20 July 1974.

In many, many cases people in whole villages were thrown out of their homes and sent to Areas of Confinement, kept in poor conditions, many sleeping rough in fields within sight of their empty homes, others in atrocious conditions in places like the Dome Hotel in Kyrenia and Pavlides Garage in Nic, and denied access to third-party help such as the Red Cross.

Then consider what is an essential element of ethnic cleansing... the terrifying fear brought about in whole communities by murders, massacres and other atrocities... a fear that caused many, many people to pack what they could carry, which was often just the children, and flee by whatever way they could to the Free Areas within a few days of the Invasion.

So all in all it has practically bugger all nothing whatsoever to do with the Geneva "Population Exchange" Agreement" that was agreed a whole year later.

I agree with Bill...Not many people needed much forcing to leave their homes and seek shelter in secure areas...This was exactly what happened to the TCs during 63-74 era...It was fear induced by murders and attrocities,plus the odd fullscale massacre...10s of thousands of TCs left their homes and villages...because of the sheer terror for their lives...But until our GC friends here admit this and condemn the ethnic cleansing of the TCs during the 60s,they have no moral right to talk about what happened during the 70s...Come clean,admit,repent...then we can reciprocate,and perhaps find some empathy and compassion for each others plight...This cannot be achieved by onesided accusations and misinformation campaigns...But,on second thought, I fear it is too late anyway...Erdogan is now talking about the Turkish blood shed during the 74 'peace' operation!!! That is all we need...

Should I remind you that ethnic cleansing was your aim from the 1950s and that you are the ones who collaborated with the foreign imperialists, and initiated the conflict by attacking and massacring innocent Cypriot people, in your effort to regain the privileges you had on our expense during your oppressive rule of our island?

Don't try to play the "who started" game with me, because it is crystal clear who did. It is the Turks who keep invading our island in their effort to exploit Cyprus and its people and deny from us our freedom.

The only thing we ever fought for was freedom and democracy. You never accepted this, as you think of yourselves not as an ethnic minority that you really are, but as the Ottoman overlords who should decide the destiny of this island against the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people.

Had the Turks wished to 'ethnically cleanse' Cyprus, they could have done it during the Ottoman period. Only because of Enosis the idea came up to partition the island. Please dont give us the diatribe about 'your God given right of self determination at he expense of the 'Musulman' population of Cyprus.

...and yes, ethnic cleansing was the result of these ideas. Are you happy now?

Ethnic Cleansing in Cyprus was a Turkish idea in the 50s. Invading Cyprus and oppressing us was again a Turkish idea, even before that.

Self-determination is our right and it is not on the "expense" of the Muslim minority in Cyprus. Your minority in Cyprus can have what every other minority in every other country has. Nothing less and nothing more.

Will you ever stop making the same laughable arguments,Piratis???

We are in this mess now because of your ENOSIS with Greece dream as Deniz pointed out,and we are sinking deeper and deeper into the shit that the idiotic attempt to give away our homeland has created...Everyone except yourself and a few diehard EOKA sympatisers know which community was ethnically cleansed and when...So stop pretending milk is black,admit your mistakes like a man,repent and apologise...We might even forgive you..

Sure, when the Turks were butchering Cypriots by the 10s of thousands and were oppressing us there was no problem, and the problem started only when we, along with all other Greeks, revolted seeking our freedom

The problem for the Cypriots was the foreign oppression. Liberated and being part of a free Greek state was the solution to the problems the Turks and other foreign imperialists created to us.

But obviously the Ottoman rule was not a problem for you, since you had gains on our expense. Your problem only started when the native people revolted seeking their freedom, because our freedom meant that you would lose the privileges you had on our expense.

Yes, everybody knows who had ethnic cleansing as an aim and who created conflicts and wars in order to achieve this aim. It really couldn't be more obvious.

Even until this day you support ethnic cleansing just like you did since the 50s, because you want to have some "Turkish State" in Cyprus and the ONLY way you can have this is by ethnically cleansing GCs.

Laughable.

Last week some forumer posted links to the History of Cyprus. The Sultan had to send an army to Cyprus to quell a rebellion by the Musulman population of Cyprus. Further, Some Ottoman military leasers were excuted on the wish of the then Greek Orthodox archbishop. But you know all this dont you Piratis - please carry on playing the same old, same old tune. We are enjoying it big time.
The oppression was against the whole of the island and not the Greeks. The rebellions were carried out by the 'Musulmans'.

It is well known that the Muslims had many privileges. The Christians had to pay many more taxes and they were treated like second category people and not even their testimony was accepted in courts!

Beyond that if the Muslims wanted even more rights, that is not unlikely at all. We see how TCs "revolt" today, not to support our human and democratic rights which they are happy to violate, but because they want even more for themselves.

Read the following then come back to me. Pay particular attention to pages 70 - 78 and the rest. Most of the sources are GO clergy and other GC sources.

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=Evl ... an&f=false

Dont dare call it Turkish propaganda.

question:
Why the church have so much land in archangelos lakatamia area ?????

[denizaksulu]

Only a Turk would think that the Ottoman rule did not oppress the people they invaded and occupied.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Deniz, if you disagree with anything of the above say exactly what it is.

They invaded and 'oppressed, yes. But it was the Christians and the 'Musulmans' that was oppressed. You keep on harping about the GC being the only ones oppressed and blaming the TCs for oppressing GCs (Ottoman times) rather than the Authorities. If you read my link and as verified by Greek (Cypriot or Greek Greek I know not) scholars - the GO Church had a great part in oppressing the populace - thus gaining lands and riches. We do not want you to be selective in what you write.

Read my link and you will see that the opening of the Greek School in Cyprus was approved by the Porte after visitations by the Greek Orthodox clergy. I find that very oppressive. As to the executions of the notables and the higher clergy, blame that on the 1821 revolution in the Balkans and the corruption of the Greek clergy. I am not saying they deserved to die, but read the link, those 'Musulmans' that stood up to the Porte were also executed. If you want to be fair, do not pick and choose. Does not do you any good. It only results in Partitionistas to come up with similar ridiculous allegations.

Deniz, the Ottomans oppressed everybody, but the native non-Muslim populations far more. This is a fact, which is why a minority of Christians were forced to become Muslims at that time. Did the high ranking members of the GO Church help the Ottomans? Yes they did. Those who didn't ended up dead, like Kyprianos in 1821.

The one who is selective is you. On one hand you want to disassociate yourselves from the actions of Ottomans and Turkey, but at the same time you want to keep the whole GC population responsible for the coup created by the Athens junta.

And about the Ottomans allowing some Greek school, are we supposed to be grateful for this? Your minority of 18% wants 50% power, 30% of civil servants, Turkish official language etc etc, and we should be happy because you allowed us to have a school???

The Ottomans approving a school goes against the grain of everything you say Piratis, that is why you pick on it. Quite often it was the GO clergy's word against the 'Ottoman' selected rulers, but I forgive you for ignoring this fact. I will respect you for just reading that link ( but you dont give a damn to respect from a 'Musulman / TC do you. Pity. I respect anyone who is impartial - like the Greek authors quoted in the History of Cyprus.