Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Okay cap, let us see. Do you know, for a start, another country that celebrates the beginning of war rather than the end. Greece is the only one, in the whole world. Why is this, I wonder, do you have any answers?

Furthermore, Italy and Greece were both fascist countries when war broke out on october 28 1940. It was the case of one fascist fighting another fascist. The Greek army was well prepared for the Italian attack. Mobilisation started in secret from June 1940 and in October the Italians started an ill thought of campaign from badly equipped ports in Albania that could not keep up with the basic task of supplying an attacking army that was badly misinformed about the terrain that laid ahead. As one Italian soldier reported at the time "they promised us we would be in Athens by nightfall, for coffee, but nobody told us that between Albania and Athens stood a huge mountain range".

Still, the Greek soldiers fought bravely, but so did the Italian soldiers, under extremely difficult circumstances. What I object to is the supernatural tinge the nationalists give to the Greek soldier that triumphed despite fighting against all odds. This is a pathetic attempt that basically it is used to excuse later failures.

[Oracle]

Now we know why it was titled "Clouds" ... In memory of obfuscating Bananiot.

[Bananiot]

Simon

Bananiot, firstly I am pleased to see that you now accept there are many rational, moral and non-racist Greeks in the world today. That itself is progress from your initial post. You are correct that education does also play an important role, indeed, I class education as part of the circumstances I referred to earlier. But your use of "rationality" appears to be subjective. What makes you believe you have the monopoly on rationality? Is this not itself irrational? Piratis, and I'm sure he can speak for himself, clearly believes it is irrational to allow injustice to prevail, you seem to believe rationality lies in conceding to the powerful. Consider the ancient Greeks for example, would you not be saying don't bother fighting the Persians, it is irrational, we are small, they are the largest empire the world has ever seen, offer them territorial concessions and hope they accept? How rational was it for Spartans to throw babies to their death if they were seen to be "weak" in some way? There were many irrational actions undertaken by the ancient Greeks. How about Alexander's trek through the desert, killing thousands of his men, for no apparent reason? Like I said Bananiot, taking a few great minds from ancient Greece and comparing them with the general population of Greeks today is itself irrational, to the extent that it perhaps calls into question your "Greekness"? Even you have now admitted there are rational Greeks, and you obviously believe there are irrational Greeks; the same of course would be true in ancient times. The whole of ancient Greece was not full of little Socrates' Bananiot! Greeks past and present have always had this slightly untamed, obdurate, defiant and passionate streak. We see evidence of this today as we have in the past.

I have no problem with you criticising Greece Bananiot, I think it is healthy if done constructively. But by the same token, if I believe Greeks are being unfairly attacked, my affection for Greece (and Greeks in general) will usually compel me to respond. You seem unable to develop that particular attribute.

Simon, I do not know what knowledge you have of Greek classics, but I think you have failed to grasp what I wrote. Rationality is never subjective, it is as clear as 2+2=4 and as consistent as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. It is the most potent weapon we have to overcome different isms and when the chips are down and everything seems lost, it can save the day. You keep referring to the Spartans and their rationale that seemingly served them well for a period of time. With present day terms I would say that realpolitik is the closer we can get to rational thought and action, and there is absolutely nothing subjective about it. Without it you are lost, doomed to fail (heroically or not it makes little difference) and I could argue that mostly we lack the political leaders who could direct and guide people. In fact, populism is the order of the day and this is the worse service for the country, but this is a matter for another thread, perhaps.

You are making a cardinal mistake if, as it seems, you think that rationality is conceding to the powerful. Rationality means you look determinedly at all parameters that are involved in a situation and set up realistic goals. Your idea that rationality may be an obstacle to glorious success is absurd to say the least. It is a highly dangerous one too, but I would be interested to hear some names of contemporary Greeks who you consider to be rational, even if you do not think much of rationalism. You know, it is quite peculiar too, that you mock rationalism but then you show exhilaration because "I admitted that rational Greeks exist". Perhaps you can explain this too.

[supporttheunderdog]

I am concerned with those who speak of pure blood, dna, and the like. It reminds me of Germany in the 1930s. There were no pure Greeks even in ancient times where a great empire Hellenized, civilized and assimilated half the world. The Byzantium Empire did the same with the Slavs ... it christianized and assimilated many Slavs making them Greeks. To this i say so what.

The Myceneaens appear to have done something similar to Alashiya, in terms of supplnating the native Culture with theirs, in about 1200BC if you would believe some, though Greek never really finally took off as the Island's language unitl about 700 years later,

[AEKTZIS]

ZoC, Sabaton are a Finnish band....and the guy who made the video is a Serb....so your sarcasm is wasted on us.

"us"? who else apart from little old u knew this bit of serbo-finnish trivia?

we are not slavs re, wake up ANTHELLINES

i'm not a slav, sure. but then, i don't claim to be a modern greek.

I believe a lot of people knew this piece of trivia....Sabaton are an internationally-renowned metal band, they make songs about historical battles...

[Simon]

Simon

Bananiot, firstly I am pleased to see that you now accept there are many rational, moral and non-racist Greeks in the world today. That itself is progress from your initial post. You are correct that education does also play an important role, indeed, I class education as part of the circumstances I referred to earlier. But your use of "rationality" appears to be subjective. What makes you believe you have the monopoly on rationality? Is this not itself irrational? Piratis, and I'm sure he can speak for himself, clearly believes it is irrational to allow injustice to prevail, you seem to believe rationality lies in conceding to the powerful. Consider the ancient Greeks for example, would you not be saying don't bother fighting the Persians, it is irrational, we are small, they are the largest empire the world has ever seen, offer them territorial concessions and hope they accept? How rational was it for Spartans to throw babies to their death if they were seen to be "weak" in some way? There were many irrational actions undertaken by the ancient Greeks. How about Alexander's trek through the desert, killing thousands of his men, for no apparent reason? Like I said Bananiot, taking a few great minds from ancient Greece and comparing them with the general population of Greeks today is itself irrational, to the extent that it perhaps calls into question your "Greekness"? Even you have now admitted there are rational Greeks, and you obviously believe there are irrational Greeks; the same of course would be true in ancient times. The whole of ancient Greece was not full of little Socrates' Bananiot! Greeks past and present have always had this slightly untamed, obdurate, defiant and passionate streak. We see evidence of this today as we have in the past.

I have no problem with you criticising Greece Bananiot, I think it is healthy if done constructively. But by the same token, if I believe Greeks are being unfairly attacked, my affection for Greece (and Greeks in general) will usually compel me to respond. You seem unable to develop that particular attribute.

Simon, I do not know what knowledge you have of Greek classics, but I think you have failed to grasp what I wrote. Rationality is never subjective, it is as clear as 2+2=4 and as consistent as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. It is the most potent weapon we have to overcome different isms and when the chips are down and everything seems lost, it can save the day. You keep referring to the Spartans and their rationale that seemingly served them well for a period of time. With present day terms I would say that realpolitik is the closer we can get to rational thought and action, and there is absolutely nothing subjective about it. Without it you are lost, dooled to fail (heroically or not it makes little difference) and I could argue that we lack the political leaders who could direct and guide people. In fact, populism is the order of the day and this is the worse service for the country.

Bananiot, I think you failed to grasp what I wrote. I referred to "your use of rationality". You are talking about rationality as if whatever you say is rational, and whoever disagrees (re the Cyprus problem) irrational. I used the term "subjective" because that is exactly what you are doing, using rationality subjectively, i.e. this is rational because in my experience I believe it is. Are you saying the Cyprus problem is as clear as 2 + 2 = 4? And if so what is your 2 + 2, the RoC agreeing to the Annan Plan for instance? Do you now see what I mean? Your 2 + 2 is subjective, hence my point you are using the term inappropriately. Following Realpolitik is fine to an extent, but must be moderated. Otherwise, it often involves stepping all over other people, which in turn creates more problems than it solves.

[Cap]

Okay cap, let us see. Do you know, for a start, another country that celebrates the beginning of war rather than the end. Greece is the only one, in the whole world. Why is this, I wonder, do you have any answers?

Furthermore, Italy and Greece were both fascist countries when war broke out on october 28 1940. It was the case of one fascist fighting another fascist. The Greek army was well prepared for the Italian attack. Mobilisation started in secret from June 1940 and in October the Italians started an ill thought of campaign from badly equipped ports in Albania that could not keep up with the basic task of supplying an attacking army that was badly misinformed about the terrain that laid ahead. As one Italian soldier reported at the time "they promised us we would be in Athens by nightfall, for coffee, but nobody told us that between Albania and Athens stood a huge mountain range".

Still, the Greek soldiers fought bravely, but so did the Italian soldiers, under extremely difficult circumstances. What I object to is the supernatural tinge the nationalists give to the Greek soldier that triumphed despite fighting against all odds. This is a pathetic attempt that basically it is used to excuse later failures.

Jesus Bana! why are you appeasing the aggressor?
Whether the Greeks knew or not has zero relevance, they were DEFENDING their homeland! And they triumphed against a SUPERIOR equipped enemy!

Slag them off all you want but at least give them that!
Since when did the victim become the criminal? Geeeeez...

[Oracle]

.. Rationality means you look determinedly at all parameters that are involved in a situation and set up realistic goals..

Rationality does not set limits ...

[Simon]

Okay cap, let us see. Do you know, for a start, another country that celebrates the beginning of war rather than the end. Greece is the only one, in the whole world. Why is this, I wonder, do you have any answers?

Furthermore, Italy and Greece were both fascist countries when war broke out on october 28 1940. It was the case of one fascist fighting another fascist. The Greek army was well prepared for the Italian attack. Mobilisation started in secret from June 1940 and in October the Italians started an ill thought of campaign from badly equipped ports in Albania that could not keep up with the basic task of supplying an attacking army that was badly misinformed about the terrain that laid ahead. As one Italian soldier reported at the time "they promised us we would be in Athens by nightfall, for coffee, but nobody told us that between Albania and Athens stood a huge mountain range".

Still, the Greek soldiers fought bravely, but so did the Italian soldiers, under extremely difficult circumstances. What I object to is the supernatural tinge the nationalists give to the Greek soldier that triumphed despite fighting against all odds. This is a pathetic attempt that basically it is used to excuse later failures.

You can pick out any war that has ever taken place and cite reasons why the victor won and loser lost. There are always circumstances, and of course all soldiers that risk death are brave. The fact remains however, that Greece would have been given little chance before the war of repelling an Italian invasion; and against a superior army from a much larger and richer country, achieved what very few people expected them to. Greece may have even played a significant part in the Allies winning the war, as several historians have noted. Something indeed for Greece to be proud of.

[Bananiot]

Appeasing the aggressor? That's all you understood? You know, I am a teacher and once in England, I was lucky enough to watch a history lesson at a school in Rugby. It was about a battle between the French and the English in which the English came on top. The teacher separated the class into two groups, the French and the english. Each group was given five minutes to come up with answers. The english group had to explain why they wao the battle and the French group why they lost. The kids came up with mature answers, all based on rational arguments like tactical moves that were made at crucial times of the battle and gave important advantages.

In our case we are contented with babish talk. We fought like lions, we defended the motherland, we had saint George fighting by our side, etc.

Will we ever grow up Cap?