Cyprus-Forum.com

[kurupetos]

ZoC, Sabaton are a Finnish band....and the guy who made the video is a Serb....so your sarcasm is wasted on us.

we are not slavs re, wake up ANTHELLINES

Do you live in the UK? That's promising!

[Cap]

Actually, the song is about the Greco Italian War during WWII.
Outgunned, outmanned... it was a glorious victory for them. Once again, respect to them.

For an underdog, they always seem to pull together and perform miracles when the nation is on the brink.

[Bananiot]

Simon

Bananiot, I believe it is you who is not looking at the bigger picture. You are referring to the very select "brains" of ancient Greece, as if they were representative of the average ancient Greek, or the systems of government in the ancient city-states. This is highly distortive. Yes, of course the great minds of ancient Greece were advanced far beyond their era and have offered a great deal to humanity generally, but if you are telling me there are no intellectual, rational, moral, non-racist Greeks in the world today, then I'm sorry but you're talking racist nonsense yourself. Modern Greeks have not been able to make an impact to match the ancient Greeks, but that would be pretty impossible in today's world. In any event, the logic you are using is flawed. It would be like me arguing that modern Chinese people are not the descendants of the ancient Chinese because Confucianism is not followed. It's nonsense. Yes, Greece has many improvements to make, but to tarnish all Greeks in the manner you have, and use that as matter of fact proof to show modern Greeks have nothing to do with the ancients, is quite ludicrous. Human behaviour is governed largely by circumstance, and as an independent country, Greece is still relatively young.

Simon, can we make our debate a bit more practical? Perhaps you can tell me the names of some prominent Greeks you consider to be rational, moral and non-racist. I have know doubt that many such Greeks exist but I would like you to tell me some names. If you like I can make the first move and I nominate Nikos Dimou as one fine example of a Greek who demonstrates quite amply these universal attributes.

You say that behaviour is largely governed by circumstances. Many people would agree with you, it sounds like a fair statement. I would add that education also plays an important role. The Greeks of the Hellenistic era behaved differently from the Greeks of today, for the above reasons. But, and this is a big but, rational thought does not and cannot change as a result of influences of the environment. The environment can be likened to Plato's dark cave where circumstances couldn't be any worse. Man can only escape from the darkest of forces (racism, fascism, nationalism, hegemonism, militarism) by the strength of rational thought.

Our debate takes place within the framework of constant bickering about the Cyprus problem. If Piratis, for example, could escape from Plato's cave (or to use a more practical parable, from his stereotype view that as long as you have justice on your side, you are legitimate to ask for the maximum) and saw reality for the first time, he would perhaps begin to understand the forces that govern this world. But first, he needs to employ rationality in order to escape his make-believe world. Rationality is not his strong point and this makes him, in my opinion, less Greek than he would want to be. Being Greek has nothing to do with colour, religion or race. Anyone that is given Greek education can boast of being Greek. But, what kind of a Greek, if I may ask. Livanelli once said that Greece is my spiritual country. Many "foreigners" have thought like this. In my book they are more Greek than the likes of AEKTZIS, for instance, who sees only threats to his Greekness.

Simon, now I hope you understand better where I am getting at. I would also like to tell you that those that criticize Greece, love Greece and what it should stand for, umpteenth times more than the morons who take to the streets and tell us how proud they are for some sporting success which was achieved with or without dope. Or, those morons that think they are better Greeks when they run down Turks.

[Bananiot]

Cap

Actually, the song is about the Greco Italian War during WWII.
Outgunned, outmanned... it was a glorious victory for them. Once again, respect to them.

Would you like me to break your bubble, cap? What you wrote comes straight out of schooll book and has nothing to do with reality. Look it up a bit, GR style, you can find interesting staff, even on the internet.

[Cap]

Cap

Actually, the song is about the Greco Italian War during WWII.
Outgunned, outmanned... it was a glorious victory for them. Once again, respect to them.

Would you like me to break your bubble, cap? What you wrote comes straight out of schooll book and has nothing to do with reality. Look it up a bit, GR style, you can find interesting staff, even on the internet.

Here we Bana..
Anything else you'd like to know, don't hesitate to ask.

[ZoC]

ZoC, Sabaton are a Finnish band....and the guy who made the video is a Serb....so your sarcasm is wasted on us.

"us"? who else apart from little old u knew this bit of serbo-finnish trivia?

we are not slavs re, wake up ANTHELLINES

i'm not a slav, sure. but then, i don't claim to be a modern greek.

[ZoC]

ZoC, Sabaton are a Finnish band....and the guy who made the video is a Serb....so your sarcasm is wasted on us.

we are not slavs re, wake up ANTHELLINES

Do you live in the UK? That's promising!

sure, london's full of slavs... a lot of them wash cars and shit..

[Oracle]

Bananiot imagines himself as some ancient Athenian swinging in his "basket" dishing out wisdom. In reality, he is like the jurors who condemned Socrates to death by believing half-truths. He is the accuser rhetorically condemning "Modern Greeks" for corrupting "Ancient Greeks". Ironically, missing the point entirely ...

[Simon]

Simon

Bananiot, I believe it is you who is not looking at the bigger picture. You are referring to the very select "brains" of ancient Greece, as if they were representative of the average ancient Greek, or the systems of government in the ancient city-states. This is highly distortive. Yes, of course the great minds of ancient Greece were advanced far beyond their era and have offered a great deal to humanity generally, but if you are telling me there are no intellectual, rational, moral, non-racist Greeks in the world today, then I'm sorry but you're talking racist nonsense yourself. Modern Greeks have not been able to make an impact to match the ancient Greeks, but that would be pretty impossible in today's world. In any event, the logic you are using is flawed. It would be like me arguing that modern Chinese people are not the descendants of the ancient Chinese because Confucianism is not followed. It's nonsense. Yes, Greece has many improvements to make, but to tarnish all Greeks in the manner you have, and use that as matter of fact proof to show modern Greeks have nothing to do with the ancients, is quite ludicrous. Human behaviour is governed largely by circumstance, and as an independent country, Greece is still relatively young.

Simon, can we make our debate a bit more practical? Perhaps you can tell me the names of some prominent Greeks you consider to be rational, moral and non-racist. I have know doubt that many such Greeks exist but I would like you to tell me some names. If you like I can make the first move and I nominate Nikos Dimou as one fine example of a Greek who demonstrates quite amply these universal attributes.

You say that behaviour is largely governed by circumstances. Many people would agree with you, it sounds like a fair statement. I would add that education also plays an important role. The Greeks of the Hellenistic era behaved differently from the Greeks of today, for the above reasons. But, and this is a big but, rational thought does not and cannot change as a result of influences of the environment. The environment can be likened to Plato's dark cave where circumstances couldn't be any worse. Man can only escape from the darkest of forces (racism, fascism, nationalism, hegemonism, militarism) by the strength of rational thought.

Our debate takes place within the framework of constant bickering about the Cyprus problem. If Piratis, for example, could escape from Plato's cave (or to use a more practical parable, from his stereotype view that as long as you have justice on your side, you are legitimate to ask for the maximum) and saw reality for the first time, he would perhaps begin to understand the forces that govern this world. But first, he needs to employ rationality in order to escape his make-believe world. Rationality is not his strong point and this makes him, in my opinion, less Greek than he would want to be. Being Greek has nothing to do with colour, religion or race. Anyone that is given Greek education can boast of being Greek. But, what kind of a Greek, if I may ask. Livanelli once said that Greece is my spiritual country. Many "foreigners" have thought like this. In my book they are more Greek than the likes of AEKTZIS, for instance, who sees only threats to his Greekness.

Simon, now I hope you understand better where I am getting at. I would also like to tell you that those that criticize Greece, love Greece and what it should stand for, umpteenth times more than the morons who take to the streets and tell us how proud they are for some sporting success which was achieved with or without dope. Or, those morons that think they are better Greeks when they run down Turks.

Bananiot, firstly I am pleased to see that you now accept there are many rational, moral and non-racist Greeks in the world today. That itself is progress from your initial post. You are correct that education does also play an important role, indeed, I class education as part of the circumstances I referred to earlier. But your use of "rationality" appears to be subjective. What makes you believe you have the monopoly on rationality? Is this not itself irrational? Piratis, and I'm sure he can speak for himself, clearly believes it is irrational to allow injustice to prevail, you seem to believe rationality lies in conceding to the powerful. Consider the ancient Greeks for example, would you not be saying don't bother fighting the Persians, it is irrational, we are small, they are the largest empire the world has ever seen, offer them territorial concessions and hope they accept? How rational was it for Spartans to throw babies to their death if they were seen to be "weak" in some way? There were many irrational actions undertaken by the ancient Greeks. How about Alexander's trek through the desert, killing thousands of his men, for no apparent reason? Like I said Bananiot, taking a few great minds from ancient Greece and comparing them with the general population of Greeks today is itself irrational, to the extent that it perhaps calls into question your "Greekness"? Even you have now admitted there are rational Greeks, and you obviously believe there are irrational Greeks; the same of course would be true in ancient times. The whole of ancient Greece was not full of little Socrates' Bananiot! Greeks past and present have always had this slightly untamed, obdurate, defiant and passionate streak. We see evidence of this today as we have in the past.

I have no problem with you criticising Greece Bananiot, I think it is healthy if done constructively. But by the same token, if I believe Greeks are being unfairly attacked, my affection for Greece (and Greeks in general) will usually compel me to respond. You seem unable to develop that particular attribute.

[Cap]

I agree. I'm the first to criticize Greece for its shortcomings but don't think for a second that I'm going to sit here and distort well documented historical facts for the purpose of furthering anybody's agenda.