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Modern "Greeks" are Slavs!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Klik » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:26 pm

To end the shit about how Greece victory over Italians was insignificant:

FACT:
It was the first Allied victory since 1935 when Hitler started provoking the British and French when he started occupied Rhineland, annexed Austria, Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia(they were supposed to declare war after this, so it counts as a major defeat) and finally declared war on him after he invaded Poland (includes Italian aggression in Ethiopia/Abyssinia)

FACT:
It was the victory that inspired the occupied Yugoslavians to provide a huge obstacle for Hitler's army with a huge region-wide rebellion.

FACT:
Greece resisted more than super France who actually waved the white flag because they didn't want their beloved Paris to be marked with bombs!!!! (at least Paris>London today :D)

FACT:
The Germans in Thesaloniki did not raise the Nazi flag until every single Greek soldier left the area out of respect of the opponent. Greece has resisted more than France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Holland, Belgium altoghether

FACT:
Greece was left alone in a war against Italian-Albanian joint forces, Bulgarian forces on the north east and German army from at least 3 different fronts. The British did little to help by just hanging at Crete waiting in case the Germans would look to go to Cyprus in order to gain a full advantage over the Mediterranean and capture Suez and Middle East in order to wipe out the British authority over the Mediterranean.

QUOTES:
“For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.”
- Adolph Hitler (From speech he delieverd to Reichstagon May 4th 1941)

“I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek people whose resistance decided WW2.”
– Joseph Stalin (From speech broadcast over radio after victory of Stalingrad January 31 1943)

You fought unarmed and won, small against big. We owe you gratitude because you gave us time to defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you.
- Joseph Stalin

“The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the military and that surprises always await us.”
-Benito Mussolini 10/5/1941
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Postby ZoC » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:40 pm

Klik wrote:
QUOTES:
“For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.” - Adolph Hitler (From speech he delieverd to Reichstagon May 4th 1941)


i must say, i am impressed by this.

so when ur ready - o bold, courageous greeks, with your highest disregard of death - for the sake of historical truth, we've still got 40,000 nazi troops who need removing from the north of cyprus.
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Postby ZoC » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:49 pm

and their nazi leader has just announced he isn't willing to return even a gram...
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Postby Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:52 pm

The Gene Wars

By Diana Muir Appelbaum, Paul S. Appelbaum

What can science teach us about the validity of nationalist claims?

http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=30

Macedonian nationalists want Greece back, or at least its northern provinces. Their latest weapon is an obscure genetic study, which claims that while Macedonians belong to the older Mediterranean substratum of peoples, Greeks do not. Consequently, the study concludes, the Macedonians predate even the earliest Greek civilization.1 Among Macedonian political activists who believe that Greece “has held Macedonian territory illegally for… ninety-three years” and who dream of the re-unification of historical ethnic Macedonia, there is considerable excitement at the prospect of their view that Macedonians “are the oldest people living in the Balkans” being genetically corroborated.2 Welcome to the gene wars.

Genetically based claims to sovereignty are the newest tactics employed in old struggles over national sovereignty and borders.3 They are used to support assertions of historical primacy, the principle that the first of the nations still existing to have established collective life on a specific territory has a right to statehood there. The desire to claim historical primacy is so strong that national groups of recent origin and nations that arrived comparatively recently to the territory where they now demand sovereignty are inclined to invent histories alleging ancient roots. An example is the case of Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic.

When Ataturk set about fashioning a Turkish nation from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, he was confronted with the presence of the indigenous Greek and Armenian peoples of Anatolia, both of whom boast well-documented histories predating the Turkic speakers. The brutal ethnic cleansing and genocide by which Ataturk proceeded to eliminate these populations are well known, but less familiar is his re-writing of history in order to grant the Turks a claim to historical primacy. As Bernard Lewis explains, Ataturk’s narrative asserted that “the Turks were a white, Aryan people, originating in Central Asia… [who] migrated in waves to various parts of Asia and Africa, carrying the arts of civilization with them…. Sumerians and Hittites [an ancient Anatolian people]… were both Turkic peoples. Anatolia had thus been a Turkish land since antiquity.”4 And indeed, Ataturk’s remains lie in a grand Hittite-style mausoleum. Legal scholar Chaim Gans has also pointed out that the appeal of the historical primacy argument is such that national movements that were not, in fact, the oldest organized society on the territory where they claim sovereignty “do not try to deny the validity of the argument. What they do instead is construct a genealogy that supposedly demonstrates their kinship ties to extinct peoples who had occupied the disputed territories before their rivals.”5

For national movements that can demonstrate historical, linguistic, and archaeological evidence of primacy, such as the Basques, genetics are simply added to the list of determining factors when claiming rights to a given piece of land.6 But for national groups that lack these proofs, such as the Macedonians, justification must be sought elsewhere. Recently, they have turned to the field of genetics.

As its advocates maintain, genetics can be used to trace the descent of a population; in this, it offers an appearance of scientific certitude that is compelling to those who wish to bolster their claims to territorial sovereignty. But, as this essay will demonstrate, genetic data in truth offer virtually nothing to such groups: Much of the information being marshaled to support claims of national primacy is culled from studies that are either flawed or misinterpreted. Moreover, even when high-quality research does indicate a specific ancient people among a modern group’s ancestors, such data are not magic bullets that enable the group to confirm, scientifically, whichever assertion of ancestry it wishes to be true.7 Rather, as we will see, rights to territorial sovereignty are legitimately determined by a much more complex array of considerations. Put simply, fighting wars for territory using the rhetoric of genetics is bound to be a losing proposition.

Diana Muir Appelbaum is the author of Reflections in Bullough’s Pond: Economy and Ecosystem in New England (University Press of New England, 2000), and is working on a book on nationalism. Paul S. Appelbaum is the Elizabeth K. Dollard Professor of Psychiatry, Medicine, and Law and director of the program in psychiatry, law, and ethics at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons.
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Postby Klik » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:54 pm

Why are telling me this on this topic which is about "modern Greeks being Slavs" :roll:
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Postby Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:00 pm

Lit wrote:The Gene Wars

By Diana Muir Appelbaum, Paul S. Appelbaum

What can science teach us about the validity of nationalist claims?

http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=30

Macedonian nationalists want Greece back, or at least its northern provinces. Their latest weapon is an obscure genetic study, which claims that while Macedonians belong to the older Mediterranean substratum of peoples, Greeks do not. Consequently, the study concludes, the Macedonians predate even the earliest Greek civilization.1 Among Macedonian political activists who believe that Greece “has held Macedonian territory illegally for… ninety-three years” and who dream of the re-unification of historical ethnic Macedonia, there is considerable excitement at the prospect of their view that Macedonians “are the oldest people living in the Balkans” being genetically corroborated.2 Welcome to the gene wars.

Genetically based claims to sovereignty are the newest tactics employed in old struggles over national sovereignty and borders.3 They are used to support assertions of historical primacy, the principle that the first of the nations still existing to have established collective life on a specific territory has a right to statehood there. The desire to claim historical primacy is so strong that national groups of recent origin and nations that arrived comparatively recently to the territory where they now demand sovereignty are inclined to invent histories alleging ancient roots. An example is the case of Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic.

When Ataturk set about fashioning a Turkish nation from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, he was confronted with the presence of the indigenous Greek and Armenian peoples of Anatolia, both of whom boast well-documented histories predating the Turkic speakers. The brutal ethnic cleansing and genocide by which Ataturk proceeded to eliminate these populations are well known, but less familiar is his re-writing of history in order to grant the Turks a claim to historical primacy. As Bernard Lewis explains, Ataturk’s narrative asserted that “the Turks were a white, Aryan people, originating in Central Asia… [who] migrated in waves to various parts of Asia and Africa, carrying the arts of civilization with them…. Sumerians and Hittites [an ancient Anatolian people]… were both Turkic peoples. Anatolia had thus been a Turkish land since antiquity.”4 And indeed, Ataturk’s remains lie in a grand Hittite-style mausoleum. Legal scholar Chaim Gans has also pointed out that the appeal of the historical primacy argument is such that national movements that were not, in fact, the oldest organized society on the territory where they claim sovereignty “do not try to deny the validity of the argument. What they do instead is construct a genealogy that supposedly demonstrates their kinship ties to extinct peoples who had occupied the disputed territories before their rivals.”5

For national movements that can demonstrate historical, linguistic, and archaeological evidence of primacy, such as the Basques, genetics are simply added to the list of determining factors when claiming rights to a given piece of land.6 But for national groups that lack these proofs, such as the Macedonians, justification must be sought elsewhere. Recently, they have turned to the field of genetics.

As its advocates maintain, genetics can be used to trace the descent of a population; in this, it offers an appearance of scientific certitude that is compelling to those who wish to bolster their claims to territorial sovereignty. But, as this essay will demonstrate, genetic data in truth offer virtually nothing to such groups: Much of the information being marshaled to support claims of national primacy is culled from studies that are either flawed or misinterpreted. Moreover, even when high-quality research does indicate a specific ancient people among a modern group’s ancestors, such data are not magic bullets that enable the group to confirm, scientifically, whichever assertion of ancestry it wishes to be true.7 Rather, as we will see, rights to territorial sovereignty are legitimately determined by a much more complex array of considerations. Put simply, fighting wars for territory using the rhetoric of genetics is bound to be a losing proposition.

Diana Muir Appelbaum is the author of Reflections in Bullough’s Pond: Economy and Ecosystem in New England (University Press of New England, 2000), and is working on a book on nationalism. Paul S. Appelbaum is the Elizabeth K. Dollard Professor of Psychiatry, Medicine, and Law and director of the program in psychiatry, law, and ethics at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons.


Sumerians and Hittites...Turkic people? Really? LOL
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Postby AEKTZIS » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:42 pm

Klik wrote:To end the shit about how Greece victory over Italians was insignificant:

FACT:
It was the first Allied victory since 1935 when Hitler started provoking the British and French when he started occupied Rhineland, annexed Austria, Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia(they were supposed to declare war after this, so it counts as a major defeat) and finally declared war on him after he invaded Poland (includes Italian aggression in Ethiopia/Abyssinia)

FACT:
It was the victory that inspired the occupied Yugoslavians to provide a huge obstacle for Hitler's army with a huge region-wide rebellion.

FACT:
Greece resisted more than super France who actually waved the white flag because they didn't want their beloved Paris to be marked with bombs!!!! (at least Paris>London today :D)

FACT:
The Germans in Thesaloniki did not raise the Nazi flag until every single Greek soldier left the area out of respect of the opponent. Greece has resisted more than France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Holland, Belgium altoghether

FACT:
Greece was left alone in a war against Italian-Albanian joint forces, Bulgarian forces on the north east and German army from at least 3 different fronts. The British did little to help by just hanging at Crete waiting in case the Germans would look to go to Cyprus in order to gain a full advantage over the Mediterranean and capture Suez and Middle East in order to wipe out the British authority over the Mediterranean.

QUOTES:
“For the sake of historical truth i must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.”
- Adolph Hitler (From speech he delieverd to Reichstagon May 4th 1941)

“I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek people whose resistance decided WW2.”
– Joseph Stalin (From speech broadcast over radio after victory of Stalingrad January 31 1943)

You fought unarmed and won, small against big. We owe you gratitude because you gave us time to defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you.
- Joseph Stalin

“The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the military and that surprises always await us.”
-Benito Mussolini 10/5/1941


Klik I want to thank you for this post. It filled me with pride which is one of the warmest feelings you can experience.
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Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 pm

Cap wrote:Erm.. according to the table 'R1a is considered the Slavic Haplogroup'
The Greeks are at 8.3%...

But then again why so much R1b from Western Europe? 22.8%

Anyways I'd like to take a DNA test, find out where my ancestors originated from... lol

If I've got any Sub Saharan haplogroups I'll commit suicide....


I understand the R1b did not come from W Europe: the R1B came with peoples who probably originated in the Southern Rusian Steppes and headed west, splitting in different directions for (a) Greece (where they became the Hellene Tribes) and (b) West to becoming Celts.
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Postby Bananiot » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 pm

The Chronicle of Monemvasia sheds ample light on this matter, enough to make the hairs of all "pure" Greeks stand on end.
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:37 am

Bananiot wrote:The Chronicle of Monemvasia sheds ample light on this matter, enough to make the hairs of all "pure" Greeks stand on end.

In the case of bald ones please read "pubic hair".
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