Perhaps GR meant to say 'Modern Greeks are Chavs'?
The way the younger ones are behaving there recently - I'd have to agree with that.
Modern "Greeks" are Slavs!
by Oracle » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:54 pm
Welcome back Paphitis, and with such clearheaded posts.
As for Bananiot criticising the Greeks, from within his ivory tower, for remembering 28th October; I've attended several OXI remebrance days, and the marches are about standing up to aggressors, despite their size and power. This is very much in keeping with the “Ancient Greek Virtues he dishes out but does not observe! But, his distaste at Greece’s bravery explains why he propagates signing away Cyprus to Turkey.
As for Bananiot criticising the Greeks, from within his ivory tower, for remembering 28th October; I've attended several OXI remebrance days, and the marches are about standing up to aggressors, despite their size and power. This is very much in keeping with the “Ancient Greek Virtues he dishes out but does not observe! But, his distaste at Greece’s bravery explains why he propagates signing away Cyprus to Turkey.
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by Bananiot » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:20 pm
Retired Paphitis? But you get your daily dose it seems, shall we call it semi- retirement? I am afraid your post added nothing to an interesting talk I had with Simon, as you chose to ignore the core of our debate which was rather philosophical and a bit too much for you, perhaps. Instead you thought that the behaviour of new countries like Australia and New Zealand could set a precedent for the old world and its values.
Let me stress again. Nobody in Europe celebrates the beginning of war. All countries celebrate the ending of war and liberation (from oppressor or war itself). Remembering the onset of war is a different thing altogether but celebrating the sending of millions of young lives to be butchered is sick, to say the least. Greece is the sole country in the world that does this, along with what is left of Cyprus. Perhaps the learned sociologists and psychologists of this forum can enlighten us on this and try to explain this behaviour.
I have my own ideas but I will not reveal them to people that believe that there is no problem with this.
P.S. Just to clarify one thing. There are several studies that suggest that the present inhabitants of Greece are basically derived form Slavic and other races. If they are correct or not it is not an issue as far as I am concerned. What is of fundamental importance is the way present day Greeks behave in our globalised village and the "heavy" heritage they have to put up with. I hate it when, every time, they want the world to know that they alone fight against superior evil forces and sometimes, guided by their Greek past, against all odds, emerge triumphant. This is so pathetic. Success has little to do with bravery but with leaders that can take quick tactical decisions that can swing in your direction the outcome of closely fought contentions. Luck can also play role, under certain circumstances and it can not be discounted. Bravery is to be found in all peoples, it is important, but it is not enough and it cannot be measures, in a rational way, just like love.
Let me stress again. Nobody in Europe celebrates the beginning of war. All countries celebrate the ending of war and liberation (from oppressor or war itself). Remembering the onset of war is a different thing altogether but celebrating the sending of millions of young lives to be butchered is sick, to say the least. Greece is the sole country in the world that does this, along with what is left of Cyprus. Perhaps the learned sociologists and psychologists of this forum can enlighten us on this and try to explain this behaviour.
I have my own ideas but I will not reveal them to people that believe that there is no problem with this.
P.S. Just to clarify one thing. There are several studies that suggest that the present inhabitants of Greece are basically derived form Slavic and other races. If they are correct or not it is not an issue as far as I am concerned. What is of fundamental importance is the way present day Greeks behave in our globalised village and the "heavy" heritage they have to put up with. I hate it when, every time, they want the world to know that they alone fight against superior evil forces and sometimes, guided by their Greek past, against all odds, emerge triumphant. This is so pathetic. Success has little to do with bravery but with leaders that can take quick tactical decisions that can swing in your direction the outcome of closely fought contentions. Luck can also play role, under certain circumstances and it can not be discounted. Bravery is to be found in all peoples, it is important, but it is not enough and it cannot be measures, in a rational way, just like love.
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by Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:03 pm
Bananiot wrote:
There are several studies that suggest that the present inhabitants of Greece are basically derived form Slavic and other races.
You are a complete imbecile and i will prove it to you right now. If i were to take a look at a Slav from say Russia, Poland or what have you....this individual really does not look like a Greek nor vice versa. What several studies, malaka, do you have that show Greeks are Slavs? Are these studies from Makedonija? You're a joke and this thread proves it.
Last edited by Lit on Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:06 pm
Paphitis wrote:Bananiot wrote:Okay cap, let us see. Do you know, for a start, another country that celebrates the beginning of war rather than the end. Greece is the only one, in the whole world. Why is this, I wonder, do you have any answers?
Nothing like sheer stupidity to bring someone out of CF retirement Bananiot.
LOL
Welcome back, Paph. I hope all is well and dry in your neck of the woods!
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by Paphitis » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Bananiot wrote:Retired Paphitis? But you get your daily dose it seems, shall we call it semi- retirement? I am afraid your post added nothing to an interesting talk I had with Simon, as you chose to ignore the core of our debate which was rather philosophical and a bit too much for you, perhaps. Instead you thought that the behaviour of new countries like Australia and New Zealand could set a precedent for the old world and its values.
Yes, retired Bananiot. But this nonsense has caught my attention because I can't believe any rational human being can possibly believe this nonsense.
Fear not, because I have followed your discussion with Simon. And allow me to admit that I know very little of the Greek Classics. My brain is not geared for it, or I have not tried or bothered, is more to the point. But I am the first to admit that the Ancient Greeks were ahead of their time, and did make a tremendous and astonishing contributions to humanity. But, even they were not the epitome of utopia and nor is any nation even to this present day.
Yes mate, 'new' nations such as Australia and New Zealand have furthered these very ideals. In fact, I believe that many other nations have done the same. Humanity has moved on and evolved with these very ideals. I for one still look for the good in all people. Rationality is very subjective as Simon states, and I believe that the majority of Greek/Cypriot people are very balanced, kind and rational individuals as are the newer nations.
Yes mate, I think our values and ideals in Australia are highly evolved, even more evolved than the ideals expressed by many Ancient Greek philosophers. There has been some 2,500 years of evolution Bananiot! And I do not belittle the Ancient Greeks at all. In fact, I can only admire their tremendous contribution for they did lay the very foundations of the newer Western Nations such as Australia and New Zealand. We thank them.
Let me stress again. Nobody in Europe celebrates the beginning of war. All countries celebrate the ending of war and liberation (from oppressor or war itself). Remembering the onset of war is a different thing altogether but celebrating the sending of millions of young lives to be butchered is sick, to say the least. Greece is the sole country in the world that does this, along with what is left of Cyprus. Perhaps the learned sociologists and psychologists of this forum can enlighten us on this and try to explain this behaviour.
I have my own ideas but I will not reveal them to people that believe that there is no problem with this.
OHI day is not a celebration of War. It is a day of Remembrance, as is Anzac Day in Australia and New Zealand. Greeks do not celebrate the deaths of thousands of young men. It is a day to remember their sacrifice and to honour and pay our respects and recognise their extraordinary achievements.
No Bananiot, Ohi Day is not sick. It is a dignified remembrance of the fallen.
No one in Europe "celebrates" the deaths of thousands of young men. We do not "celebrate" the deaths of thousands of young Australians on ANZAC Day. And Greeks do not celebrate the deaths of thousands of young men on Ohi Day. We just remember them and their sacrifice to their respective nations.
I think you are the last person to be talking about Rationality Bananiot. Your ideals are anything but, so if I were you, I would just stick to studying the Greek Classics for you have much to learn...
P.S. Just to clarify one thing. There are several studies that suggest that the present inhabitants of Greece are basically derived form Slavic and other races.
So?
If they are correct or not it is not an issue as far as I am concerned.
OK. That's good!
What is of fundamental importance is the way present day Greeks behave in our globalised village and the "heavy" heritage they have to put up with. I hate it when, every time, they want the world to know that they alone fight against superior evil forces and sometimes, guided by their Greek past, against all odds, emerge triumphant.
Well, Greeks have achieved some tremendous and remarkable victories as well as have some tremendous defeats.
This is so pathetic.
No not really. They have had to fight very hard for their very survival at times.
Success has little to do with bravery but with leaders that can take quick tactical decisions that can swing in your direction the outcome of closely fought contentions.
No, I told you before. I don't believe Greeks are any more braver than any other nation. I would say that the Greek leadership in WW11 was tremendously brave under the circumstances, and that the soldiers put up a very brave fight and did initially prevail before the German onslaught!
We thank them for the first allied victory.
Luck can also play role, under certain circumstances and it can not be discounted. Bravery is to be found in all peoples, it is important, but it is not enough and it cannot be measures, in a rational way, just like love.
Agreed!
And most Greek "Slavs" would also agree.
Last edited by Paphitis on Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:37 pm
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Greeks
Genetic origins
Modern studies have constructed Greek genetic trees revealing a strong degree of homogeneity between Greeks from different geographical locations. Median networks revealed that most of the Greek haplotypes are clustered to the five known haplogroups and that a number of haplotypes are shared among Greeks and other European and Near Eastern populations. Within the loci studied, the genetic composition of the Greeks indicates a significantly low level of heterogeneity compared with other European populations.[72][73] The levels of the R1a1 haplotype, associated by some with Slavic migrations,[74] have been found to be less than 12% (by way of comparison the relevant percentage for Syria is 10% and Poland 60%).[75] This confirms other studies that disprove the thesis that the Greeks have mingled substantially with Slavic people.[76][77] A 7%–22% contribution of Y chromosomes by Greeks to Southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis in the same study.[76] Yet other studies point out the significant frequency drop of the R1a marker over the short geographic distance between Greece and its slavic northern neighbours.[78]
Modern scholars and scientists have supported the notion that there is a racial connection to the ancient Greeks. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza, have found evidence of a genetic connection between the ancient and modern Greeks.[79] Recent genetic analyses of Greek populations have provided evidence of statistically significant continuity between ancient and modern Greeks (low admixture attributed to genetic isolation due to physical barriers).[80][81][82][83]
Genetic origins
Modern studies have constructed Greek genetic trees revealing a strong degree of homogeneity between Greeks from different geographical locations. Median networks revealed that most of the Greek haplotypes are clustered to the five known haplogroups and that a number of haplotypes are shared among Greeks and other European and Near Eastern populations. Within the loci studied, the genetic composition of the Greeks indicates a significantly low level of heterogeneity compared with other European populations.[72][73] The levels of the R1a1 haplotype, associated by some with Slavic migrations,[74] have been found to be less than 12% (by way of comparison the relevant percentage for Syria is 10% and Poland 60%).[75] This confirms other studies that disprove the thesis that the Greeks have mingled substantially with Slavic people.[76][77] A 7%–22% contribution of Y chromosomes by Greeks to Southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis in the same study.[76] Yet other studies point out the significant frequency drop of the R1a marker over the short geographic distance between Greece and its slavic northern neighbours.[78]
Modern scholars and scientists have supported the notion that there is a racial connection to the ancient Greeks. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza, have found evidence of a genetic connection between the ancient and modern Greeks.[79] Recent genetic analyses of Greek populations have provided evidence of statistically significant continuity between ancient and modern Greeks (low admixture attributed to genetic isolation due to physical barriers).[80][81][82][83]
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by Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:41 pm
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Greeks
Some authors in the West and Turkey[84] have posited that the Greeks of today are not culturally or demographically related to the Greeks of classical antiquity. Notable among them was the 19th century Austrian historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer. Fallmerayer, in his work Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea während des Mittelalters, averred that demographic continuity in Greece was interrupted brutally by successive waves of invasion and migration between the 6th and 8th century by Slavs, and later, in the second half of the 14th century by Albanians[85] who occupied and settled mainly in the Peloponnese.[86] According to this narrative, the centre of gravity of the ancient Greek ethnos was shifted outside the boundaries of modern Greece, and so the "demographic evidence is at best tenuous, at worst non-existent".[86] The traditional view is that the Fallmerayer thesis, rooted in 19th century racialism,[87] provoked an "outraged" Greek response, of which Constantine Paparrigopoulos was the spearhead;[88] however, modern scholarly opinion tends to see both Fallmerayer and Paparrigopoulos as taking positions influenced by and intelligible only within the political and intellectual decline of Western philhellenism.[88]
Fallmerayer's controversial (some say racist)[88][87] views were later incorporated in Nazi theoretician Alfred Rosenberg's Der Mythus des 20es Jahrhunderts and found adherents in the Third Reich who echoed them in their writings.[89][90][91] They were also actively promoted by the Axis occupation authorities in Greece who hoped to extinguish any sympathy their troops might feel for the Greeks.[89] Other Western authors say that it is Westerners who are the "true heirs" of Greece, since Greeks today, whom they label "modern Greeks", are the product of "genetic dissonance" and "mingling with slaves".[92] While the point of demographic continuity has been contested by several authors in the West and Greece, ideas of race have never been such a prominent feature in the Greek world, either ancient,[93] or later. The medieval Greek mythological hero Digenis Acritas was so named because of his dual, Greek and Syrian, parentage.[94]
Some authors in the West and Turkey[84] have posited that the Greeks of today are not culturally or demographically related to the Greeks of classical antiquity. Notable among them was the 19th century Austrian historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer. Fallmerayer, in his work Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea während des Mittelalters, averred that demographic continuity in Greece was interrupted brutally by successive waves of invasion and migration between the 6th and 8th century by Slavs, and later, in the second half of the 14th century by Albanians[85] who occupied and settled mainly in the Peloponnese.[86] According to this narrative, the centre of gravity of the ancient Greek ethnos was shifted outside the boundaries of modern Greece, and so the "demographic evidence is at best tenuous, at worst non-existent".[86] The traditional view is that the Fallmerayer thesis, rooted in 19th century racialism,[87] provoked an "outraged" Greek response, of which Constantine Paparrigopoulos was the spearhead;[88] however, modern scholarly opinion tends to see both Fallmerayer and Paparrigopoulos as taking positions influenced by and intelligible only within the political and intellectual decline of Western philhellenism.[88]
Fallmerayer's controversial (some say racist)[88][87] views were later incorporated in Nazi theoretician Alfred Rosenberg's Der Mythus des 20es Jahrhunderts and found adherents in the Third Reich who echoed them in their writings.[89][90][91] They were also actively promoted by the Axis occupation authorities in Greece who hoped to extinguish any sympathy their troops might feel for the Greeks.[89] Other Western authors say that it is Westerners who are the "true heirs" of Greece, since Greeks today, whom they label "modern Greeks", are the product of "genetic dissonance" and "mingling with slaves".[92] While the point of demographic continuity has been contested by several authors in the West and Greece, ideas of race have never been such a prominent feature in the Greek world, either ancient,[93] or later. The medieval Greek mythological hero Digenis Acritas was so named because of his dual, Greek and Syrian, parentage.[94]
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by Lit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:01 pm
Anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel:
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/texts/gr ... hological/
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information ... _john.html
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/texts/gr ... hological/
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information ... _john.html
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