Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

I see we have twice as many Brits siding with Elgin the Vandal as opposed to Byron the enlightened one.

IMHO There is a minor problem with the above sentence and that is that the idea of the modern Olympics and with it the flame, and thus the prosepct of the flame being with-held, did not come about until long after both Elgin and Byron were dead.

Now it follows from this that whatever their views on the return of the marbles, neither of them were ever in a position to express any opinion (say through your poll) linking the return of marbles to withholding the flame, so logically no one voting in your poll can therefore be supporting a position neither Byron nor Elgin could have adopted.

Everyone knows they're dead. I am free to use Byron's evidence against what Elgin had done to support my view that the stolen, vandalised marbles should be returned.

As for withholding the flame as coercion; my mind is not made up, yet. Either way, it raises awareness of the controversial, unilateral stance of the British Museum to continue to hold on to them.

[Oracle]

If, as is indicated by some reliable sources, Lord Elgin did not properly puchase the marbles then they should of course be returned to Greece.

If however they were properly bought and paid for then, IMHO there is no obligation to return them.

I think the Museum Director should consider this in terms similar to the Orams' case. The Turks were occupying Greece and the artifacts were not theirs to sell - just like the GC homes in the north, presently.

Eventually this may have to be taken to the Courts, where precedent has been set. But it would be nice to transfer them back wilfully and amicably since it is High Culture we are dealing with.

There is a subtle difference, and that is at the time the Marbles were removed the Ottomans were considered to constitute the lawful rulers of Greece and (presumably) the lawful owners of the Parthenon, as opposed to the position in the TRNC which is not internationally recognised.

For the avoidance of doubt I think the Orams got what they deserved in the RoC and the UK courts. IMHO All Cypriot Citizens as entitled to Citizenship by virtue of the 1959 agreements, the 1960 constitution, and the laws of the ROC (whether they speak Turkish or Greek, are Maronite, or Armenian) who were forced to flee from their homes as as result of the violence and/or invasions in the period say 1956 to 1974 should (with certain very limited exceptions) be entitled to the return of their property in whatever part of the island it may be.

I think you'll find, from reputable historical sources, that the Ottomans were loathed as invaders and occupiers, who were resisted by as many countries as were unfortunate enough to be singled out by the barbarians. It was for this reason, eventually, the Europeans rallied round to help Greece fight for her freedom.

[supporttheunderdog]

Initially the European powers rallied around the Ottoman Empire and condemned the revolution but by 1823, with concern at atrocities (for which both the Greeks and Ottomans were guilty) and as the UK was concerned with Russian expansionism at the expense of the Ottoman Empire, (which ultimately lead to Britain fighting alongside the Ottoman Empire against Russia in the Crimean war, in the 1850's. and to the 1878 lease) the British and French decided to intervene to keep a measure of control over the nascent state. All part of the great game, not because of any Altruism by the French, UK (who regarded Turkey as an ancient ally) and Russia.

[Oracle]

... lead to Britain fighting alongside the Ottoman Empire against Russia in the Crimean war, in the 1850's. and to the 1878

I didn't say other Europeans helped the Greeks' liberation struggle through altruism. But at least now you seem to have gathered that Elgin knew the Greeks were under occupation by the Ottomans. The above dates don't figure into this discussion since the Greek war of Independence was 1821-1829 and Elgin removed the Parthenon marbles between 1801-1812, presumably (in timely fashion) whilst the liberation was brewing.

Sadly, the British Museum will be seen as a place of "Cultural Fascism" as it continues to insult the intelligence of the peoples of the world.

Not so the Scottish Parliament:

Scots ministers seek Elgin Marbles’ return
Published Date: 28 June 2009
By By Eddie Barnes Political Editor

THE Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece and displayed at the new Acropolis Museum, the Scottish Government has declared.
Ministers say that there is a clear right for the priceless sculptures – currently housed in the British Museum in London – to be returned to their place of origin, where they were removed in 1801 by the British diplomat Lord Elgin.

[Gasman]

Sadly, the British Museum will be seen as a place of "Cultural Fascism" as it continues to insult the intelligence of the peoples of the world.

You do come out with some utter tosh!

You should be on your knees thanking them for educating the masses about your beloved motherland!

http://www.ancientgreece.co.uk/

You'll find more like minded souls here than you will on this forum. I am guessing the only ones agreeing with you are your other IDs - adds up to about the right number!

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=26737554572&topic=9504#!/group.php?gid=26737554572

[supporttheunderdog]

It depends on what you mean by occupation, in particular if legal or not, but if you are trying to suggest anything illegal about the occupation known to Elgin you trying to impute words to me I have not come out with - as far as Elgin was concerned at the time in question (1801-12) the Ottoman Empire were the de jure rulers of what only later became independant Greece (and legal owners of the Parthenon, which I believe was used a military establishment) not illegal occupiers.

Otherwise don't try to impose modern 20th/21st Century views on early 19th century internationally recognised political structures or I'll start suggesting that those of Dorian and/or even Mycenaean extraction to go back to where they came from before they invaded and became occupiers what is now Greece and /or (as is claimed by some) Cyprus and/or parts of Anatolia.

The issue to me is did Elgin acquire the marbles with a legitimate purchase or under some other genuine lawful arrangement with the then acknowledged legal owners, the Ottoman authorities: if the answer is no, then from both a legal and moral POV the marbles should be returned: if the answer is yes, and Elgin properly acquired legal title (and I am quite happy to agree some of the evidence suggests he did not) then from a legal POV (but not necessarily a moral POV) there is no obligation on the British Government to return them.

[Oracle]

Sadly, the British Museum will be seen as a place of "Cultural Fascism" as it continues to insult the intelligence of the peoples of the world.

You do come out with some utter tosh!

You should be on your knees thanking them for educating the masses about your beloved motherland!

http://www.ancientgreece.co.uk/

You'll find more like minded souls here than you will on this forum. I am guessing the only ones agreeing with you are your other IDs - adds up to about the right number!

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=26737554572&topic=9504#!/group.php?gid=26737554572

Sadly Greece has never plundered any British relics as I'm sure you would also be on your knees thanking us for looking after your .. erm ... erm ... nope can't think of anything equivalent since Pytheas the Greek discovered and mapped Britain ...

However, I'm sure the whole of Britain is down on its knees, grateful, to Cyprus for housing YOU!

[BTW "Cultural Fascism" is a term borrowed from the previous Director of the British Museum. ]

[Oracle]

It depends on what you mean by occupation, in particular if legal or not, but if you are trying to suggest anything illegal about the occupation known to Elgin you trying to impute words to me I have not come out with - as far as Elgin was concerned at the time in question (1801-12) the Ottoman Empire were the de jure rulers of what only later became independant Greece (and legal owners of the Parthenon, which I believe was used a military establishment) not illegal occupiers.

Otherwise don't try to impose modern 20th/21st Century views on early 19th century internationally recognised political structures or I'll start suggesting that those of Dorian and/or even Mycenaean extraction to go back to where they came from before they invaded and became occupiers what is now Greece and /or (as is claimed by some) Cyprus and/or parts of Anatolia.

The issue to me is did Elgin acquire the marbles with a legitimate purchase or under some other genuine lawful arrangement with the then acknowledged legal owners, the Ottoman authorities: if the answer is no, then from both a legal and moral POV the marbles should be returned: if the answer is yes, and Elgin properly acquired legal title (and I am quite happy to agree some of the evidence suggests he did not) then from a legal POV (but not necessarily a moral POV) there is no obligation on the British Government to return them.

No, stud, I'm not giving the Ottoman occupation of Greece the same well-documented and recognised, equivalent, illegal occupation as the today occupation of Cyprus; because, as you know, the UN etc were not around to write the terms of legislation and legally clarify the matter. But, it was well known enough, attracting learned opponents to the Ottomans, to worry MacGregor, today, that he cannot hold on to stolen goods without being in turn called a cultural fascist with dubious moral standpoints.

[After all, the Brits "bought" Cyprus off the Ottoman Turks, all the while knowing its history of being part of the Hellenic world ---- but that's another of our continuing sagas too.]

This from Afrikanet sums up one MacGregor faux pas, as he stumbles for "logical" arguments to hold on to plundered cultural and religious artefacts ...

How can a University-educated person declare that the fact that artefacts have been removed from elsewhere and brought to the British Museum must mean that they were legally removed, given the history of long disputes regarding many objects in the British Museum?

“…there's no question it was legal because you can't move those things without the approval of the power of the day. It was clearly allowed, or it wouldn't have happened.”

On MacGregor’s line of reasoning, all artefacts which have been looted or stolen in the colonial period, irrespective of their individual histories and circumstances, must have been legally removed since they were successfully removed.

[SSBubbles]

I see we have twice as many Brits siding with Elgin the Vandal as opposed to Byron the enlightened one.

IMHO There is a minor problem with the above sentence and that is that the idea of the modern Olympics and with it the flame, and thus the prosepct of the flame being with-held, did not come about until long after both Elgin and Byron were dead.
Now it follows from this that whatever their views on the return of the marbles, neither of them were ever in a position to express any opinion (say through your poll) linking the return of marbles to withholding the flame, so logically no one voting in your poll can therefore be supporting a position neither Byron nor Elgin could have adopted.

Everyone knows they're dead. I am free to use Byron's evidence against what Elgin had done to support my view that the stolen, vandalised marbles should be returned.

As for withholding the flame as coercion; my mind is not made up, yet. Either way, it raises awareness of the controversial, unilateral stance of the British Museum to continue to hold on to them.

I suppose, the 13 votes which don't agree the flame should be denied is a reflection on how much the Olympics are valued.

So, from your highlighted quotes, how do you value the Olympics?

[Oracle]

I see we have twice as many Brits siding with Elgin the Vandal as opposed to Byron the enlightened one.

IMHO There is a minor problem with the above sentence and that is that the idea of the modern Olympics and with it the flame, and thus the prosepct of the flame being with-held, did not come about until long after both Elgin and Byron were dead.
Now it follows from this that whatever their views on the return of the marbles, neither of them were ever in a position to express any opinion (say through your poll) linking the return of marbles to withholding the flame, so logically no one voting in your poll can therefore be supporting a position neither Byron nor Elgin could have adopted.

Everyone knows they're dead. I am free to use Byron's evidence against what Elgin had done to support my view that the stolen, vandalised marbles should be returned.

As for withholding the flame as coercion; my mind is not made up, yet. Either way, it raises awareness of the controversial, unilateral stance of the British Museum to continue to hold on to them.

I suppose, the 13 votes which don't agree the flame should be denied is a reflection on how much the Olympics are valued.

So, from your highlighted quotes, how do you value the Olympics?

There are now 15 votes which do not agree that the flame should be withheld - I assume it reflects on how much the Brits/non-Brits want the Olympic Games. Which is a good thing. I hope the Brits don't decide to hold on to the flame, though!

Anyway, my mind's not yet made up if it is a worthy sacrifice to fight fire with fire. The Olympic ideals shouldn't be tampered with. vs The Parthenon marbles' demise at the BM. ???

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts ...