Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

How on earth will you be a slave of Turkey you eoka reject? you were willing to whore yourself out to Greece.

We are Greeks and being part of Greece means being equal Greek citizens as every other Greek citizen in every other island or territory of Greece. How is that "whoring"?

[Piratis]

Your signature is on the document which wiped the slate clean, you fucked up big time and will never see a solution as you envisage it, this is the solution so make the best of it cause it aint gonna change.

That signature was extracted by means of blackmail and brute force and therefore no slate was wiped clean. The slate will be wiped clean when Cyprus will be liberated from foreign invaders and we will be satisfied with what we have in our own island. Until that happens don't expect from us to forget the crimes your committed and you continue to commit against us.

[Viewpoint]

How on earth will you be a slave of Turkey you eoka reject? you were willing to whore yourself out to Greece.

We are Greeks and being part of Greece means being equal Greek citizens as every other Greek citizen in every other island or territory of Greece. How is that "whoring"?

Are you not a Cypriot?

[Piratis]

But maybe in the future we will be able to get our "car" back, nobody knows what the future will bring. So why not keep the keys of our car just in case and meanwhile also make the Mafia Boss suffer a bit? Since the deal the Mafia Boss is offering us today is not good enough, thats really the only logical thing to do.

What's wrong is to think at the car, and plan your life based on it. Throwing the keys away might help you to forget about it and continue your life. If you want, you can of course make the Mafia Boss suffer a bit, for getting some sort of revenge.

Of course, if you ask me, the deal that the Mafia Boss seems ready to accept isn't that bad, given the conditions, so there is no reason for throwing the keys away yet.

The same way that the Turks overcame the problems, only for us it will much easier since we would be liberating our own lands and we will already have people owning the real title deeds to the properties there.

The Turks overcame the problems by:

- Scaring off the native population through massacres, rapes etc, so making them flee. Are you planning to do the same to the future population of the North, which by then will feel as much native?

- Using the previous isolation and suffering of TCs to make them feel that it worths leaving their land and houses behind and move to the North. Are you planning to create a similar situation of pressure on a part of GC population, to make them feel unwelcomed and be ready to leave everything behind and move to the North?

- Using the bad economic situation of parts of Turkish population (I mean, from Turkey), to give them a motivation for moving in North Cyprus in search of a better future. Where are you going to find people in similar bad economic situation, in Greece?

Not much better than Annan Plan as a total, but better in some key issues which are of great importance to GCs, like the one I mentioned.

I am not sure which are the key issues you are referring to. Obviously if key issues change in a way that will be acceptable to us (e.g. land distribution, power sharing etc) then the result could be accepted. But I don't see this happening because the Turks will not accept changes to key issues, and even Christofias makes proposals (e.g. rotating presidency) which are not accepted by the majority of GCs! So I really don't see how key issues can be changed in a way that the result will be acceptable to us.

I don't think there is much chance for improvements in territory or coastline issue. Power sharing is more or less already agreed - I don't know the Annan Plan in detail to tell you if and how much it's improved, but the weighted vote is for sure a great progress, not from a GC but from a general Cypriot point of view.

Key issues in which there is a chance for improvements is, I think, the property issue (mainly clearing up the procedure, and providing guarantees), the army issue, perhaps even the guarantee treaties. The deviations from rights as applied in EU is also an area where a deal close to GC positions is possible, I believe, though I don't know how this was in Annan-Plan exactly.

You can't do anything to the Prime Minister of Turkey, but if the TC president violates the constitution, there should be a process to kick him out of his office, like I guess there is in all states based on a constitution.

First of all we would need a parameter in the constitution that would define this. But even if there is, who will decide if there is a violation and who would enforce the law. Do you envision GC policemen dragging a TC president out of the presidential palace? The TC leadership (under the direction of Turkey) could claim that the issue is humanitarian, and use this excuse to flood Cyprus with even more Turks and there would be very little we could do.

I don't quite understand the point with the humanitarian claim.

If the policemen who will drag the TC president out will be TC or GC is irrelevant - they will obey to the federal goverment. As to who will decide if there is a violation, I guess some kind of a constitutional court.

If the child thinks of you as the father instead of me and you fulfill all your functions as a father, then the question, who's the father isn't easy to answer, even if it legally belongs to me.

The "child" in this case is land. Land can't talk. So let me rephrase: If I stole your car and I keep your car illegally in my possession, does your car belong to me? I think nobody can seriously debate that it does.

Just as the child metaphor has deficits, so does the car metaphor. Territory gained through war between countries isn't the same as a stolen car, and the value of international legality isn't the same as the laws which apply on car thefts.

You earlier admitted that TCs are not the ones who exercise real power over the north part of Cyprus. Turkey is. The TCs are just a bunch of puppets with no real power so even by using your own definition we again come to the same conclusion: There is no such "trnc" state, which is why we use this term in quotes to distinguish this pseudo state, from real states such as RoC which is the one and only state in Cyprus (and you can't have more than one real state over the same territory. On the other hand you can have as many fake states like the "PS" and the "trnc" as you want. All you need to do is to declare them)

First, the TCs are a people, they aren't puppets. There is a difference between the TC people and the TC regime. The TC regime is one higly dependent on Turkey. All states are dependent on others, there is no such thing as a really independent state, but the difference between e.g. RoC and TRNC (besides recognitions etc) is that the later is almost exclusively dependent on one and single other state.

As the English say "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" If they think that they can get the ideal solution for themselves by ethnically cleansing us then we should reciprocate and define as our ideal solution the ethnic cleansing of TCs from Cyprus which will solve all the problems for us.

Sorry, I am not Jesus Christ. If somebody insists on slapping me then I would slap him back, I will not turn the other cheek. So when the balance of power will change the Turks should know that they will get what they wanted, but in reverse.

This is what I mean by a national, instead of humanist, way of thinking. You speak of the GCs and TCs as if they are each a single body, and so a punishment can be applied to TCs collectively as a people. That's the same mentality which supported the ethnic cleansing of Sudete Germans by the Czechs, this is why I asked you why did you mention it. It is also a similar mentality with that e.g. of Hamas when it carries suicide bombings with civilian Israelis as targets.

This has nothing to do with Christian ethics, but to if you can see a people as collectively guilty for something, instead of juding their guilt as individuals.

Afro, I think we are going over the same things. Just some quick points:

- We are not going to throw away the "keys" and we do not want to forget our lands.

- The Turks do not accept something that can also be acceptable to us. (and by "us" I mean the majority of Cypriots, not Christofias). Your optimism is really unfounded in my opinion.

- When Cyprus is liberated there will be many people willing to return. The refugees might make new lives in the south part of Cyprus, but their properties are in the north and therefore there will be a lot of investment opportunities there. I know many people that move from say Limassol to Nicosia in order to get a better job and more money. So I really don't see why people will not want to return and develop their own land and profit from it.

- Will the federal government and the constitutional court be able to take any important decision without the agreement of TCs?

- The puppets in north part of Cyprus are completely subordinate to Ankara. Nothing to do with a real state and the normal interdependence between states.

- Don't worry, we will judge their guilt as individuals. Most of them are guilty for supporting the partition of Cyprus in one way or another though. Those that don't will be more than welcomed to stay in Cyprus as equal Cypriot citizens.

[BirKibrisli]

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom

Correction....The Turks in the 50s single handedly worked to deny you Enosis with Greece....You have since tried to achieve that cherished goal by hook or by crook...When' Freedom' comes to Cyprus you can be sure YOU will not like it one little bit...And you will only have yourselves to blame...Listen to the wise and sensible Bananiot,he is telling you the way to get yourselves out of this mess....If you insist on achieving'freedom" which is slavery for the TCs you will end up losing what little of it you have now...don't say I didnt warn you...

That's right! F%^#ing GCs!



We're holding your homes, your villages and towns at gunpoint and yet the need to threaten you further seems like a good idea yet you're not reacting!WTF!

The insolence of some people, you bring 40,000 troops ALL the way from Turkey to kick innocent GCs (that's right! iNNOCENT GCs that never harmed a Tc in their life) out of their homes and they still make it necessary for us to threaten them with more violence, if we don't listen to a couple of turncoats that happen to blab on about what a haven of peace Turkish policy has been.

Frustrating,isn't it DT?
Yet I am only playing Piratis' game...
I did not bring 40 000 Turkish soldiers to the island....Your stubborn desire to achive Enosis with Greece by hook or by crook did...If you can't see that then you are as blind and ignorant and in denial as the best of THEM!

Your schemings and intimidations,and humiliations and actual murders and lootings of innocent TC villages (remember Ayios Vasilios and the nearby villages during December/January 63/4????) were the start of all evil in my beloved homeland...Carry on the way you do, and worse fate is waiting for you (and the future generation of Cypriots)down the road,my friend...Take that as a warning from a friend!!!

What a bunch of lame excuses and nonsense! We would be just as happy with a truly independent and truly democratic Cyprus. Something you never accepted for Cyprus to be.

It was Makarios that first proposed independence, you never did, because you never wanted an independent Cyprus. What you wanted is a Cyprus which is under the control of Turkey, so they can continue to give to your small minority gains on the expense of the majority of Cypriots, just like it was under Ottoman rule.

You started the conflict and the murders in the 50s by collaborating with the foreign Imperialists and attacking the GCs. You can't hide the truth Bir. The facts show beyond any doubt that the conflict did NOT start in 1963 but years earlier, so it is about time you stopped lying and admit that you started the conflict in the 50s in order to help the Imperialists keep Cyprus enslaved and have gains on our expense.

You are right,Piratis. The seeds of the modern Cyprus problem was sown back in 1821...When you first got the idea of joining Greece! What was it called???Let me think....oh,yes....ENOSIS!!!!!

[Piratis]

How on earth will you be a slave of Turkey you eoka reject? you were willing to whore yourself out to Greece.

We are Greeks and being part of Greece means being equal Greek citizens as every other Greek citizen in every other island or territory of Greece. How is that "whoring"?

Are you not a Cypriot?

I am Limassolian, Cypriot, Greek and European. And this is perfectly logical, since most Limassolians are Cypriot, most Cypriots are Greek, and most Greeks and European.

[BirKibrisli]

Your signature is on the document which wiped the slate clean, you fucked up big time and will never see a solution as you envisage it, this is the solution so make the best of it cause it aint gonna change.

That signature was extracted by means of blackmail and brute force and therefore no slate was wiped clean. The slate will be wiped clean when Cyprus will be liberated from foreign invaders and we will be satisfied with what we have in our own island. Until that happens don't expect from us to forget the crimes your committed and you continue to commit against us.

You know when Cyprus will be liberated,Piratis...????
When there is no one left who thinks Cyprus is a Greek island...Then we will all put it all behind us and learn to become good Cypriots,and try to undo the damage done by those who wanted to turn me into an alien,or second class citizen in my own country...Bring it on,the sooner the better...

[Piratis]

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom

Correction....The Turks in the 50s single handedly worked to deny you Enosis with Greece....You have since tried to achieve that cherished goal by hook or by crook...When' Freedom' comes to Cyprus you can be sure YOU will not like it one little bit...And you will only have yourselves to blame...Listen to the wise and sensible Bananiot,he is telling you the way to get yourselves out of this mess....If you insist on achieving'freedom" which is slavery for the TCs you will end up losing what little of it you have now...don't say I didnt warn you...

That's right! F%^#ing GCs!



We're holding your homes, your villages and towns at gunpoint and yet the need to threaten you further seems like a good idea yet you're not reacting!WTF!

The insolence of some people, you bring 40,000 troops ALL the way from Turkey to kick innocent GCs (that's right! iNNOCENT GCs that never harmed a Tc in their life) out of their homes and they still make it necessary for us to threaten them with more violence, if we don't listen to a couple of turncoats that happen to blab on about what a haven of peace Turkish policy has been.

Frustrating,isn't it DT?
Yet I am only playing Piratis' game...
I did not bring 40 000 Turkish soldiers to the island....Your stubborn desire to achive Enosis with Greece by hook or by crook did...If you can't see that then you are as blind and ignorant and in denial as the best of THEM!

Your schemings and intimidations,and humiliations and actual murders and lootings of innocent TC villages (remember Ayios Vasilios and the nearby villages during December/January 63/4????) were the start of all evil in my beloved homeland...Carry on the way you do, and worse fate is waiting for you (and the future generation of Cypriots)down the road,my friend...Take that as a warning from a friend!!!

What a bunch of lame excuses and nonsense! We would be just as happy with a truly independent and truly democratic Cyprus. Something you never accepted for Cyprus to be.

It was Makarios that first proposed independence, you never did, because you never wanted an independent Cyprus. What you wanted is a Cyprus which is under the control of Turkey, so they can continue to give to your small minority gains on the expense of the majority of Cypriots, just like it was under Ottoman rule.

You started the conflict and the murders in the 50s by collaborating with the foreign Imperialists and attacking the GCs. You can't hide the truth Bir. The facts show beyond any doubt that the conflict did NOT start in 1963 but years earlier, so it is about time you stopped lying and admit that you started the conflict in the 50s in order to help the Imperialists keep Cyprus enslaved and have gains on our expense.

You are right,Piratis. The seeds of the modern Cyprus problem was sown back in 1821...When you first got the idea of joining Greece! What was it called???Let me think....oh,yes....ENOSIS!!!!!

At that time there was no Greek state to join. If the foreign invaders let Cyprus free from that time then there wouldn't be any need for any subsequent union since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

But now I understand that when you say "Cyprus Problem" you are talking about the problem from the invaders viewpoint.

Because for us native Cypriots, the problem was the Turkish oppression, and the freedom of Cyprus along with all other Greek islands and territories would in fact be the solution to the problem you created by invading our island and oppressing us.

But yes, I can see how from the invaders point of view the problem starts only when the people they oppress start seeking their freedom.

[Piratis]

Your signature is on the document which wiped the slate clean, you fucked up big time and will never see a solution as you envisage it, this is the solution so make the best of it cause it aint gonna change.

That signature was extracted by means of blackmail and brute force and therefore no slate was wiped clean. The slate will be wiped clean when Cyprus will be liberated from foreign invaders and we will be satisfied with what we have in our own island. Until that happens don't expect from us to forget the crimes your committed and you continue to commit against us.

You know when Cyprus will be liberated,Piratis...????
When there is no one left who thinks Cyprus is a Greek island...Then we will all put it all behind us and learn to become good Cypriots,and try to undo the damage done by those who wanted to turn me into an alien,or second class citizen in my own country...Bring it on,the sooner the better...

So you mean how you "liberated" Constantinople and the north part of Cyprus with your "peace operation"? Or maybe how you also want to oppress the ethnic identity of the Kurds by calling them "Mountain Turks"?

You don't even want us to have the freedom to think what our own island is. And you call this "Liberation"? Is it enough to became "Crypto-Greeks" or "Linovamvaki", or you will employ the latest technologies to ensure that you manage to control our thoughts completely?

[BirKibrisli]

Your signature is on the document which wiped the slate clean, you fucked up big time and will never see a solution as you envisage it, this is the solution so make the best of it cause it aint gonna change.

That signature was extracted by means of blackmail and brute force and therefore no slate was wiped clean. The slate will be wiped clean when Cyprus will be liberated from foreign invaders and we will be satisfied with what we have in our own island. Until that happens don't expect from us to forget the crimes your committed and you continue to commit against us.

You know when Cyprus will be liberated,Piratis...????
When there is no one left who thinks Cyprus is a Greek island...Then we will all put it all behind us and learn to become good Cypriots,and try to undo the damage done by those who wanted to turn me into an alien,or second class citizen in my own country...Bring it on,the sooner the better...

So you mean how you "liberated" Constantinople and the north part of Cyprus with your "peace operation"? Or maybe how you also want to oppress the ethnic identity of the Kurds by calling them "Mountain Turks"?

You don't even want us to have the freedom to think what our own island is. And you call this "Liberation"? Is it enough to became "Crypto-Greeks" or "Linovamvaki", or you will employ the latest technologies to ensure that you manage to control our thoughts completely?

You are free to think whatever you like about Cyprus...as long as you don't think it is Greek!!!
Because that makes me an alien,an oppressed and despised minority in my own country...Fair enough????

And you are far behind times regarding the Kurds...Nobody calls them Mountain turks any more...Turkey is in the process of solving her Kurdish problem...Cypriots are nowhere near solving theirs,because they dont think they are Cypriots...Most think they are Greeks,and this forces the rest to think they are Turks...Hence no way out of our problem except through Partition...Partition you have worked so hard for so long to achieve...guess what? You might get there very soon...