Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

That is a very mature response, Afro, balanced and plastic, that is, it leaves margins for insertions or deletions. Keep searching with an open mind and the truth, as Rigas Feraios said, is the only parameter that truly serves national interests.

[Lit]

If somebody insists on slapping me then I would slap him back,

Dont give him a single inch, brother. Slap him some more!

[BirKibrisli]

Afro,

I am not sure if you have already expressed an opinion on this,but I have missed it in any case...So I will ask you directly...What is your considered opinion on the TC situation during the 1964-74 period...???Do you think,like most of our GC friends here,that the TCs left their rights and responsibilities in RoC government voluntarily,and moved into enclaves to advance Turkey's territorial ambitions??? Were there any other considerations??? And the other thing is, do you think the TCs were in any position to come to the aid of the Makarios supporters during the Greek Junta inspired coup d'etat of 74???

As you understnad of course, I'm too young to have a really well founded opinion on these things, because I haven't lived these situations myself. All I can do is have some ideas based on what I read or heard from other people.

So, having in mind this deficit, my ideas are more or less the following:

- To the TC situation 1964-1974: Obviously, in this period it was mainly the TCs who suffered as a result of the conflict, not only because of the violence they experienced, but also of the isolation they had to live in, and the difficulties associated with that.

- To why TCs moved into enclaves: First, it's important to differentiate between people and leadership, as I said to Piratis earlier. But yes, I believe the TC leaderships, its most significant parts at least, did look for a chance to leave the government and push the TC population into enclaves, for the sake of promoting Turkish interests (though it must be said, it seems there were different opinions as to what these interests were, between Inonu-goverment and the turkish deep state). On the other hand, the GC leadership also seems to have looked for a chance to begin the conflict again, and it seems it was not so unhappy about the enclaves and the withdrawal of TCs from government. So, these events can't be blamed on a single factor. As to why the TC population did move to the enclaves, I guess the reasons are both the pressure from their own leadership and the violence from some GCs and insecurity they experienced in these days.

- To TCs and their stance during the coup: I really know very little on this, but it's hard for me to imagine TCs fighting on the side of some GCs against other GCs in these days - I don't know if such a help would even be welcomed by Makarios's supporters. No, I don't think TCs were really in position to help. On the other hand of course, their leadership wouldn't want to help even if it had the chance, as the coup suited its interests perfectly.

Sensible,and largely accurate opinions,Afro...I am not sure how old you are ,but you seem to have a very firm grasp of the whole situation...

I am a little bit older and have lived through the 50s and 60s in Cyprus...
I can tell you,in my considered opinion,the percentages of the efffect of the TMT pressure and the fear of the GCs in determining the TC actions those heady days...It is 10% and 90 %...
As for the TCs helping the Makarios supporters during ther Coup think of this analogy : A Hyena is Attacking a Fox,would and could lambs in a lamb stye come out and help the Fox????? You can change the animals to suit your own opinion,but that was essentially how it was for the TCs...

Thank you for your response...You give me hope(As Bananiot does every time he posts something) that perhaps one day humanity, sanity and political savity might prevail!

[BirKibrisli]

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom

Correction....The Turks in the 50s single handedly worked to deny you Enosis with Greece....You have since tried to achieve that cherished goal by hook or by crook...When' Freedom' comes to Cyprus you can be sure YOU will not like it one little bit...And you will only have yourselves to blame...Listen to the wise and sensible Bananiot,he is telling you the way to get yourselves out of this mess....If you insist on achieving'freedom" which is slavery for the TCs you will end up losing what little of it you have now...don't say I didnt warn you...

That's right! F%^#ing GCs!



We're holding your homes, your villages and towns at gunpoint and yet the need to threaten you further seems like a good idea yet you're not reacting!WTF!

The insolence of some people, you bring 40,000 troops ALL the way from Turkey to kick innocent GCs (that's right! iNNOCENT GCs that never harmed a Tc in their life) out of their homes and they still make it necessary for us to threaten them with more violence, if we don't listen to a couple of turncoats that happen to blab on about what a haven of peace Turkish policy has been.

Frustrating,isn't it DT?
Yet I am only playing Piratis' game...
I did not bring 40 000 Turkish soldiers to the island....Your stubborn desire to achive Enosis with Greece by hook or by crook did...If you can't see that then you are as blind and ignorant and in denial as the best of THEM!

Your schemings and intimidations,and humiliations and actual murders and lootings of innocent TC villages (remember Ayios Vasilios and the nearby villages during December/January 63/4????) were the start of all evil in my beloved homeland...Carry on the way you do, and worse fate is waiting for you (and the future generation of Cypriots)down the road,my friend...Take that as a warning from a friend!!!

[Viewpoint]

Bir you are a lone warrior, the game is over there will be no solution they are playing the last scene. We just cannot agree a solution with these people the chasm is just to wide, we now better off defending and improving the TRNC.

[Piratis]

Piratis

Bananiot, thank you for continuing to support what I already said.

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom. The TC minority was used as the means and the excuse to this end, and the Imperialists as a reward gave to this small minority gains on the expense of every other Cypriot. In return the TCs would continue to collaborate with the foreign Imperialists in order to keep Cyprus enslaved. Makarios signed those agreements not with his own free will, but because he was blackmailed. That racist undemocratic constitution was not even put in a referendum to be approved by the Cypriot people.

It is a joke saying that in 1960 Cyprus was given its independence. If we were really independent then what is the business of Turkey, a foreign country, telling to the democratically elected president of Cyprus how to run his own country?

The fact is that Cyprus was not given its independence in 1960. Freedom and independence means to be able to democratically run our own country. That means the TC minority to have as much say as it proportionately belongs to them (18%), where foreign countries such as Turkey having no say at all. This is what independence means, and this is definitely not what was given to Cyprus.

Therefore obviously the Cypriot people had to continue the struggle for their freedom. We tried to do this in the most peaceful way possible, by proposing changes to a constitution that was written by foreigners without the slightest input from the Cypriots. (do you know many such "independent" countries who have their constitutions written and imposed on them be foreigners?) Look at the 13 points that Makarios proposed and you will see that they aim to make Cyprus a more democratic country, without violating even a single of the human rights of the TC minority. Not only that, but the TC minority would continue to have more powers than say the Greek minority in Turkey, the Muslim minority in Greece or Bulgaria, or any other equivalent minority.

But it was obvious that the Turks had no intention to allow Cyprus to be truly free and independent, and the threats about them causing unrest and conflict in case Makarios dared to make proposals for democratic reforms proves this point beyond any doubt.

Of course Bananiots with slave mentality have no problem being slaves of the Turks and taking their approval for anything we wanted to do. Such people with slave mentality were happy under Ottoman rule, under British rule, and under a pseudo independence where Turkey will continue to rule over us and tell us what we should do.

But most Cypriots are not slaves like Bananiot. Therefore we will continue to fight for our FREEDOM. When Cyprus is truly and fully liberated and we are truly free to run our own island in a democratic way without having Turks telling us what to do, that is when the Cyprus Problem will be really solved.

At least Piratis does not question the facts with the above. The historical truth is there to be seen by anyone with an open mind approach. Piratis however is guilty for something extremely important. He is constantly committing a cardinal political sin, because he chooses to ignore the most fundamental political axiom.

Politics is the art of the feasible!

More important people than Piratis committed the same crime during the last 60 or so years. In 1955, a priest and a thick soldier decided to start an armed struggle against an umpire in order to unite Cyprus with Greece, completely ignoring the vested interests some big boys had in this area. The price we paid in 1959 was the London-Zurich agreements, which we were coerced to signed, because of our options in 1955. In 1963 we wanted to change the constitution in order to turn the TC's into a minority, without political clout and thus no say whatsoever in our continuous quest for enosis. The suggestsions that we just proposed the changes and they could have been rejected and back to square one, is a dirty lie which we invented after the events. When the Turkish Ambassador came back with Ankara's response to our "proposals" we refused to even see him, let alone read the Turkish respone. Our so called proposals were for implementing, not for discussion, and for this we set up armed paramilitary armies to work towards this effect. Later, when the TC's, suffering from the strain of living for so long in enclaves, basically accepted the 13 points, Makarios changed his mind, and he asked for something more. The price we paid for this and the struggle of the dark forces of EOKA (and ELDYK, I am afraid, which secured Nicosia International Airport on Monday 15 Luly 1975 for the coupists) was the invasion by Turkey and the division of Cyprus for the last 36 years, despite the struggle of Piratis and the other self proclaimed freedom fighters.

The situation is quite comical too. Here we are in deep mess, trying to salvage what can be salvaged, and Piratis wants to go to a situation that would be better than the London - Zurich agreements. If tomorrow we are offered back the London - Zurich agreements we would bent over backwards, get hurt in the stampede and cry with joy, yet all Piratis will see is an imperialist plot.

Piratis thinks we live in an ideal world. This is childish, for only 5 year old brains can think like this, and constantly weep that we were hard done by the bullies who did not respect our numerical superiority. On top, Piratis thinks that the majority has an absolute power over the minority. In fact, any decision taken by the majority has to be respected by the minority, even if it is for the minority to commit suicide, according to the logic of Piratis. This absurd thinking is made more comical, for if you ask Piratis now, he will say that of course the minority will enjoy all human rights in a democratic frame. Unfortunately for Piratis, those he addresses such words will have to take him seriously. I have a sneaky suspicion they will not be convinced and perhaps Piratis will need to employ another line of action to see if we can cut some ice. Can we give them some local governance, Piratis, over and above?

P.S. Another uncompromising patriot, Tassos Papadopoulos, who actually disagreed with the London - Zurich agreements in 1959 (probably for different reasons than Piratis cares to admit) came to his senses a wee bit late I am afraid. At Intercollege, in 2006, during a speech, he recognised that "eventually the agreements were a blessing in disguise". They were the best that could have been achieved under the circumstances, of which partly we created.

Politics, the art of the feasible! Go for the desirable and you put your neck on the line. It does not help crying once the damage is done.

So maybe people like Martin Luther King were wrong because what they were asking for was not feasible? Maybe Martin Luther King should have just asked for only as much improvement in the rights of his people as the powerful ones were willing to give to them?

Who knows, maybe the African Americans could achieve more, faster if Martin Luther King and their leadership in general were asking for less, and probably King wouldn't have been murdered if he accepted to be a second category citizen and he kissed the asses of those who had the power. But what you forget is one important thing: Dignity.

How about your personal life Bananiot. Did you advance your career by putting yourself down and kissing asses? Because this is what many people do who care about the best result possible without caring about their dignity. Personally I would never follow this route. Dignity is of the greatest importance to me, and I would rather have less, than accept to be the slave of any Turkish invader, who would in turn maybe accept to give to me a few peanuts more to reward my loyalty.

[Lit]

Piratis

Bananiot, thank you for continuing to support what I already said.

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom. The TC minority was used as the means and the excuse to this end, and the Imperialists as a reward gave to this small minority gains on the expense of every other Cypriot. In return the TCs would continue to collaborate with the foreign Imperialists in order to keep Cyprus enslaved. Makarios signed those agreements not with his own free will, but because he was blackmailed. That racist undemocratic constitution was not even put in a referendum to be approved by the Cypriot people.

It is a joke saying that in 1960 Cyprus was given its independence. If we were really independent then what is the business of Turkey, a foreign country, telling to the democratically elected president of Cyprus how to run his own country?

The fact is that Cyprus was not given its independence in 1960. Freedom and independence means to be able to democratically run our own country. That means the TC minority to have as much say as it proportionately belongs to them (18%), where foreign countries such as Turkey having no say at all. This is what independence means, and this is definitely not what was given to Cyprus.

Therefore obviously the Cypriot people had to continue the struggle for their freedom. We tried to do this in the most peaceful way possible, by proposing changes to a constitution that was written by foreigners without the slightest input from the Cypriots. (do you know many such "independent" countries who have their constitutions written and imposed on them be foreigners?) Look at the 13 points that Makarios proposed and you will see that they aim to make Cyprus a more democratic country, without violating even a single of the human rights of the TC minority. Not only that, but the TC minority would continue to have more powers than say the Greek minority in Turkey, the Muslim minority in Greece or Bulgaria, or any other equivalent minority.

But it was obvious that the Turks had no intention to allow Cyprus to be truly free and independent, and the threats about them causing unrest and conflict in case Makarios dared to make proposals for democratic reforms proves this point beyond any doubt.

Of course Bananiots with slave mentality have no problem being slaves of the Turks and taking their approval for anything we wanted to do. Such people with slave mentality were happy under Ottoman rule, under British rule, and under a pseudo independence where Turkey will continue to rule over us and tell us what we should do.

But most Cypriots are not slaves like Bananiot. Therefore we will continue to fight for our FREEDOM. When Cyprus is truly and fully liberated and we are truly free to run our own island in a democratic way without having Turks telling us what to do, that is when the Cyprus Problem will be really solved.

At least Piratis does not question the facts with the above. The historical truth is there to be seen by anyone with an open mind approach. Piratis however is guilty for something extremely important. He is constantly committing a cardinal political sin, because he chooses to ignore the most fundamental political axiom.

Politics is the art of the feasible!

More important people than Piratis committed the same crime during the last 60 or so years. In 1955, a priest and a thick soldier decided to start an armed struggle against an umpire in order to unite Cyprus with Greece, completely ignoring the vested interests some big boys had in this area. The price we paid in 1959 was the London-Zurich agreements, which we were coerced to signed, because of our options in 1955. In 1963 we wanted to change the constitution in order to turn the TC's into a minority, without political clout and thus no say whatsoever in our continuous quest for enosis. The suggestsions that we just proposed the changes and they could have been rejected and back to square one, is a dirty lie which we invented after the events. When the Turkish Ambassador came back with Ankara's response to our "proposals" we refused to even see him, let alone read the Turkish respone. Our so called proposals were for implementing, not for discussion, and for this we set up armed paramilitary armies to work towards this effect. Later, when the TC's, suffering from the strain of living for so long in enclaves, basically accepted the 13 points, Makarios changed his mind, and he asked for something more. The price we paid for this and the struggle of the dark forces of EOKA (and ELDYK, I am afraid, which secured Nicosia International Airport on Monday 15 Luly 1975 for the coupists) was the invasion by Turkey and the division of Cyprus for the last 36 years, despite the struggle of Piratis and the other self proclaimed freedom fighters.

The situation is quite comical too. Here we are in deep mess, trying to salvage what can be salvaged, and Piratis wants to go to a situation that would be better than the London - Zurich agreements. If tomorrow we are offered back the London - Zurich agreements we would bent over backwards, get hurt in the stampede and cry with joy, yet all Piratis will see is an imperialist plot.

Piratis thinks we live in an ideal world. This is childish, for only 5 year old brains can think like this, and constantly weep that we were hard done by the bullies who did not respect our numerical superiority. On top, Piratis thinks that the majority has an absolute power over the minority. In fact, any decision taken by the majority has to be respected by the minority, even if it is for the minority to commit suicide, according to the logic of Piratis. This absurd thinking is made more comical, for if you ask Piratis now, he will say that of course the minority will enjoy all human rights in a democratic frame. Unfortunately for Piratis, those he addresses such words will have to take him seriously. I have a sneaky suspicion they will not be convinced and perhaps Piratis will need to employ another line of action to see if we can cut some ice. Can we give them some local governance, Piratis, over and above?

P.S. Another uncompromising patriot, Tassos Papadopoulos, who actually disagreed with the London - Zurich agreements in 1959 (probably for different reasons than Piratis cares to admit) came to his senses a wee bit late I am afraid. At Intercollege, in 2006, during a speech, he recognised that "eventually the agreements were a blessing in disguise". They were the best that could have been achieved under the circumstances, of which partly we created.

Politics, the art of the feasible! Go for the desirable and you put your neck on the line. It does not help crying once the damage is done.

So maybe people like Martin Luther King were wrong because what they were asking for was not feasible? Maybe Martin Luther King should have just asked for only as much improvement in the rights of his people as the powerful ones were willing to give to them?

We shall overcome.

I have a dream....a dream to see Cyprus truly united!

[Viewpoint]

How on earth will you be a slave of Turkey you eoka reject? you were willing to whore yourself out to Greece.

[Piratis]

The Turks in the 50s collaborated with the British in order to deny to Cyprus its freedom

Correction....The Turks in the 50s single handedly worked to deny you Enosis with Greece....You have since tried to achieve that cherished goal by hook or by crook...When' Freedom' comes to Cyprus you can be sure YOU will not like it one little bit...And you will only have yourselves to blame...Listen to the wise and sensible Bananiot,he is telling you the way to get yourselves out of this mess....If you insist on achieving'freedom" which is slavery for the TCs you will end up losing what little of it you have now...don't say I didnt warn you...

That's right! F%^#ing GCs!



We're holding your homes, your villages and towns at gunpoint and yet the need to threaten you further seems like a good idea yet you're not reacting!WTF!

The insolence of some people, you bring 40,000 troops ALL the way from Turkey to kick innocent GCs (that's right! iNNOCENT GCs that never harmed a Tc in their life) out of their homes and they still make it necessary for us to threaten them with more violence, if we don't listen to a couple of turncoats that happen to blab on about what a haven of peace Turkish policy has been.

Frustrating,isn't it DT?
Yet I am only playing Piratis' game...
I did not bring 40 000 Turkish soldiers to the island....Your stubborn desire to achive Enosis with Greece by hook or by crook did...If you can't see that then you are as blind and ignorant and in denial as the best of THEM!

Your schemings and intimidations,and humiliations and actual murders and lootings of innocent TC villages (remember Ayios Vasilios and the nearby villages during December/January 63/4????) were the start of all evil in my beloved homeland...Carry on the way you do, and worse fate is waiting for you (and the future generation of Cypriots)down the road,my friend...Take that as a warning from a friend!!!

What a bunch of lame excuses and nonsense! We would be just as happy with a truly independent and truly democratic Cyprus. Something you never accepted for Cyprus to be.

It was Makarios that first proposed independence, you never did, because you never wanted an independent Cyprus. What you wanted is a Cyprus which is under the control of Turkey, so they can continue to give to your small minority gains on the expense of the majority of Cypriots, just like it was under Ottoman rule.

You started the conflict and the murders in the 50s by collaborating with the foreign Imperialists and attacking the GCs. You can't hide the truth Bir. The facts show beyond any doubt that the conflict did NOT start in 1963 but years earlier, so it is about time you stopped lying and admit that you started the conflict in the 50s in order to help the Imperialists keep Cyprus enslaved and have gains on our expense.

[Viewpoint]

Your signature is on the document which wiped the slate clean, you fucked up big time and will never see a solution as you envisage it, this is the solution so make the best of it cause it aint gonna change.