Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

A solution that would give to Cypriots more rights in their land than what they have now, would be a progress.

Their rights are not up for question. It's only access which is denied by Turkey

[Afroasiatis]

A solution that would give to Cypriots more rights in their land than what they have now, would be a progress.

Their rights are not up for question. It's only access which is denied by Turkey

That's actually a good correction. So, let me rephrase it: A solution that would give to Cypriots the possibility to exercise their rights on their country, would be a progress.

[BirKibrisli]

Afro,

I am not sure if you have already expressed an opinion on this,but I have missed it in any case...So I will ask you directly...What is your considered opinion on the TC situation during the 1964-74 period...???Do you think,like most of our GC friends here,that the TCs left their rights and responsibilities in RoC government voluntarily,and moved into enclaves to advance Turkey's territorial ambitions??? Were there any other considerations??? And the other thing is, do you think the TCs were in any position to come to the aid of the Makarios supporters during the Greek Junta inspired coup d'etat of 74???

[Piratis]

A solution that would give to Cypriots more rights in their land than what they have now, would be a progress.

Sure it will. But something like Annan plan forces Cypriots to relinquish many of our rights over our lands. So obviously that is not progress.

And democracy is also as important to us. So democracy can not be any worst than what we have now otherwise it will be a regress.

No, it's a word game. If someone tries to achieve something, if he has it as a target, then I sometimes use the verb "want" to describe this. Ok, obviously you don't use this verb, and that's perfectly Ok. Then why do you say that I "want" BBF? In your definitions, BBF is nothing near to the solution I want (which is also no partition, no con-federation and no unitary state).

This is why terms are important and not just "games". You gave the impression to me (and probably to everybody else) that you want BBF. If you used the correct terms like I do then you would be more clear.

As I said, you can make the Mafia Boss suffer a bit, if that makes you feel better. What you shouldn't do is keep illusions that you'll the car back, because it's damaging your mental health - facing the reality is what someone should so.

The reality is that today we can not get our land back, and the only ones who have illusions about this are those who believe that a real solution can be achieved with the current balance of power (I have no such illusions).

But maybe in the future we will be able to get our "car" back, nobody knows what the future will bring. So why not keep the keys of our car just in case and meanwhile also make the Mafia Boss suffer a bit? Since the deal the Mafia Boss is offering us today is not good enough, thats really the only logical thing to do.

I don't need to ask the Turks how they did, I know how. The question is how you're going to do it. Can you describe the process, how you'll overcome the problems I mentioned?

The same way that the Turks overcame the problems, only for us it will much easier since we would be liberating our own lands and we will already have people owning the real title deeds to the properties there.

I lived in Germany, for some time as an EU-citizen. I could work there under the same status as German, I voted in the local elections, and most importantly: Germany didn't have the right to deport me. People might have seen me as a foreigner, and I myself too (because I wanted to; that's not the case with North Cyprus), but practically, there was little difference between me and a German.

You could vote in local elections to help elect the people who will decide how often the trash will be picked, but not in parliamentary or any other elections. Therefore you had no say for what happens in that country and this is really what makes you a foreigner.

Not much better than Annan Plan as a total, but better in some key issues which are of great importance to GCs, like the one I mentioned.

I am not sure which are the key issues you are referring to. Obviously if key issues change in a way that will be acceptable to us (e.g. land distribution, power sharing etc) then the result could be accepted. But I don't see this happening because the Turks will not accept changes to key issues, and even Christofias makes proposals (e.g. rotating presidency) which are not accepted by the majority of GCs! So I really don't see how key issues can be changed in a way that the result will be acceptable to us.

You can't do anything to the Prime Minister of Turkey, but if the TC president violates the constitution, there should be a process to kick him out of his office, like I guess there is in all states based on a constitution.

First of all we would need a parameter in the constitution that would define this. But even if there is, who will decide if there is a violation and who would enforce the law. Do you envision GC policemen dragging a TC president out of the presidential palace? The TC leadership (under the direction of Turkey) could claim that the issue is humanitarian, and use this excuse to flood Cyprus with even more Turks and there would be very little we could do.

If the child thinks of you as the father instead of me and you fulfill all your functions as a father, then the question, who's the father isn't easy to answer, even if it legally belongs to me.

The "child" in this case is land. Land can't talk. So let me rephrase: If I stole your car and I keep your car illegally in my possession, does your car belong to me? I think nobody can seriously debate that it does.

I use the capital N, because that's the way I write. I had never noticed that this is so important for Greeks or Turks. If it is, then they obviously have some problems with themselves to deal with.

The problem is with the Turks and it is called the "Cyprus Problem" where the invaders are trying to steal our lands from us.

What exists in the north part of Cyprus is 40.000 Turkish troops which are illegally occupying RoC-territory, on which a state was found, which is called TRNC, and which is recognized by no other state than Turkey. That's the truth, if we like it not. The state is there. The politicians have the reasons to use quotation marks, that's what they should do, but the reality is there.

And yes, as long as you are the one who exercises the real power on the territory of PS, the state exists. There are several states in the world which exist/existed without being internationally recognized.

You earlier admitted that TCs are not the ones who exercise real power over the north part of Cyprus. Turkey is. The TCs are just a bunch of puppets with no real power so even by using your own definition we again come to the same conclusion: There is no such "trnc" state, which is why we use this term in quotes to distinguish this pseudo state, from real states such as RoC which is the one and only state in Cyprus (and you can't have more than one real state over the same territory. On the other hand you can have as many fake states like the "PS" and the "trnc" as you want. All you need to do is to declare them)

30% was indeed a wrong calculation I made in my mind, correctly it's about 20% (though I guess in the better deal possible it could approach 30%). And as I said, what they want and what they'll get is a different thing.

As to how the final deal will exactly look like (if there is one), let's wait and see, and then judge it.

You are too optimistic.

With a BBF North will be officially in all-Cypriot hands primarily and in Turkish Cypriot (not Turkish) hands secondarily.

It depends on the BBF. That would be the case in a BBF that I would accept, but it was not the case with Annan plan.

It WAS a bad way to solve the problem, almost the worst possible.

Now the ethnic cleansing has already taken place, and it's almost 37 years old. Out of the 4 alternatives possible for the near future (BBF, con-federation, agreed partition, unofficial partition), I think BBF is the best. Of course, there are different opinions on this, which are respectable.


But then, could you explain to me how did you mean the comparison with the Sudete Germans?

Our refugees are ready to return to their homeland if our lands are liberated and we are given back the rule of our lands. The only thing that stops them is the Turkish troops and the Turkish demands for maintaining Turkish rule over north Cyprus.

As the English say "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" If they think that they can get the ideal solution for themselves by ethnically cleansing us then we should reciprocate and define as our ideal solution the ethnic cleansing of TCs from Cyprus which will solve all the problems for us.

Sorry, I am not Jesus Christ. If somebody insists on slapping me then I would slap him back, I will not turn the other cheek. So when the balance of power will change the Turks should know that they will get what they wanted, but in reverse.

[Piratis]

Afro,

I am not sure if you have already expressed an opinion on this,but I have missed it in any case...So I will ask you directly...What is your considered opinion on the TC situation during the 1964-74 period...???Do you think,like most of our GC friends here,that the TCs left their rights and responsibilities in RoC government voluntarily,and moved into enclaves to advance Turkey's territorial ambitions??? Were there any other considerations??? And the other thing is, do you think the TCs were in any position to come to the aid of the Makarios supporters during the Greek Junta inspired coup d'etat of 74???

It is very clear what the TCs did in 1963. They basically told us something that can be translated to: "Either you give to us every single gain that was granted to us on your expense by the foreign Imperialists, or else we will withdraw from the government, restart the conflict and give an excuse to Turkey to invade and partition Cyprus". They refused to even discuss the 13 points in the proposals of Makarios!

What the TCs didn't know was that the conflict they would start would drag on for years. Turkey was about to invade in 1964 but was stopped by the Americans. Probably thats the only thing that didn't go according to the Turkish plan. Fortunately for them Junta took power of Greece later on, and the Turkish fascists fooled the stupid Greek fascists to agree on "double union" under the guidance of the Americans who by then wanted to get rid of the "Red Monk of the Mediterranean Cuba".

[Bananiot]

Piratis, you have built a wall around yourself, a wall of make-believe facts that have nothing to do with reality. You use such a simplistic way to explain a complicated issue that I find it difficult to even contemplate to argue something in a serious manner with you. However, can you please give me your answer to the following:

In 1963 Makarios paid a state visit to Ankara. The Turks rolled a red carpet for him and later, during the official meetings, Inonu told him: "Your beautitude, please think again about the 13 points you want to change, you could cause undue unrest if you went ahead with this".

If Piratis's cynicism is correct, I would have expected Inonu to have encouraged him to go along with his idea and on top, encourage him to created paramilitary armed groups in order to force the changes down the throat of anyone trying to resist.

[EPSILON]

An anniversary I cannot forget. Was it the beginning of the end of Cyprus as we knew it? Culminating in the split that occured in 1974 after the coup instigated by those that hated a united Cyprus. Where are we now? Are we closer to a solution? Time is surely running out.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ember+1963

Free lesson: Cyprus ,as we knew it, ended in 1955 when T/cs employed by British against the G/cs ,who were fighting for their freedom.The story has a start -you can not begin your theories from the midle...

[denizaksulu]

An anniversary I cannot forget. Was it the beginning of the end of Cyprus as we knew it? Culminating in the split that occured in 1974 after the coup instigated by those that hated a united Cyprus. Where are we now? Are we closer to a solution? Time is surely running out.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ember+1963

Free lesson: Cyprus ,as we knew it, ended in 1955 when T/cs employed by British against the G/cs ,who were fighting for their freedom.The story has a start -you can not begin your theories from the midle...

That was a personal reflcetion. I do not re-write history like some who are prone to do. In 1958 I saw the burnings of the GC properties and remember well, yet they had no profound affect on me. Well I was only twelve at the time and the only thing I remember was the Lycee-boarding school was evacuated as the English soldiers were about to raid the place. I had to find lodgings with some relatives of mine who at the time were living among hundreds of Armenians - in Kiosklou Tsiftlik/Köşklü Çiftlik area.

[All4114All]

An anniversary I cannot forget. Was it the beginning of the end of Cyprus as we knew it? Culminating in the split that occured in 1974 after the coup instigated by those that hated a united Cyprus. Where are we now? Are we closer to a solution? Time is surely running out.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ember+1963

Free lesson: Cyprus ,as we knew it, ended in 1955 when T/cs employed by British against the G/cs ,who were fighting for their freedom.The story has a start -you can not begin your theories from the midle...

Freedom or Enosis? Your correct every story has a start and it did not start in 1955 but in 1878 until 1974 when enosis was the only outcome. With examples of Ionian Islands, Crete, Thessaly it was only time Cyprus was next on the cards. You only assume Enosis began in 1950's because it was only then the UN decided to make it an international issue.

[EPSILON]

An anniversary I cannot forget. Was it the beginning of the end of Cyprus as we knew it? Culminating in the split that occured in 1974 after the coup instigated by those that hated a united Cyprus. Where are we now? Are we closer to a solution? Time is surely running out.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ember+1963

Free lesson: Cyprus ,as we knew it, ended in 1955 when T/cs employed by British against the G/cs ,who were fighting for their freedom.The story has a start -you can not begin your theories from the midle...

Freedom or Enosis? Your correct every story has a start and it did not start in 1955 but in 1878 until 1974 when enosis was the only outcome. With examples of Ionian Islands, Crete, Thessaly it was only time Cyprus was next on the cards. You only assume Enosis began in 1950's because it was only then the UN decided to make it an international issue.

Enosis that time was more than freedom to the big majority of citizens-where is your problem? Enosis today is just a facked up case.Can you imagine that time the fight to be for " Greek Republic of Cyprus"? -A different state from Greek Republic but always Greek>? Unfo -always the leadership of the Greeks of Cyprus were -AND IT IS- short eye - persons.

The only thing wich is still working ?is the right of a majority (legally) to decide for their future. What is missing? just -again-a leadership with a -LONG EYE.!!However the bottom has always frontiers with the Great.Is just a subject pf frontiers in population mind.