Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Again: democratic principles are for states.

Other bodies or organizations can adopt some of the democratic principles to one level or another, but when we are referring to a Democracy we are reffing to a state, not anything else. EU is not a democracy (but a union of democratic states). UN is not a democracy either. A family can not be a democracy etc.

EU countries are as independent as they want to. Any country can leave the EU if it decides to do so.

And again, this is a legalist argument. If someone really gives value to democracy, he would like democratic principles to be applied everywhere.

It is not "legalist", but a basic fact.

It is a basic fact for sure, and it's also a legalist argument. There is no doubt you 're right, but still this is avoiding the main question.

Are you saying that all other democratic countries in EU don't value democracy because they don't brake up their countries by means of ethnic cleansing?

No, I'm saying they don't value democracy because they accept to be ruled based on non-democratic principles.

Countries are not "ruled" by being members of EU. EU membership is voluntarily and countries can leave from the EU any time they want.

The TC minority doesn't have a state of its own. They are trying to create one by stealing our land and ethnically cleansing us. This has absolutely nothing to do with the German model.

You 're speaking about the way the TC state was created. This has of course nothing to do with the way the german states were created (it has though a lot to do with the way e.g. the bosnian federal states were created. And also the way many independent states were created: the most obvious example is Israel, but partly also states like Turkey, Greece, Czechoslovakia, among many others).

But I'm speaking about that. I'm speaking about the way the TC state will function inside a federational system. And this has similarities to the german model, among others.

There is no such thing as a "TC state" and there will never be since we will never accept such thing. We are living in the 21st century, not the era of the conquerors, and our model for the 21st century is definitely not Bosnia!

I disagree.

"Limited free movement". We don't care about moving freely in north Cyprus as tourists. Having 1 less tourist destination is hardly a problem. The problem is Turks having control over our lands.

"a part of the country living under a strange not-recognized status". And the solution to this problem is to recognize this part of the country as being a separate Turkish state? This is the "solution" of the problem????

"people not able to use their land or houses without even getting a compensation for it". Yes, people should get their lands back. The "solution" you propose doesn't do that for many of them and it actually makes it harder for them to get compensation since today Turkey is responsible to give compensations while with the "solution" that you support we would have to compensate ourselves.

"uncontrollable incoming from settlers putting TC identity under serious danger" The TCs don't care about their identity. And who would control the Settler issue after the "solution" you support. The Turks would still have control over north Cyprus and they could import as many Settlers as they want. Who would stop them? The difference is that these settles would also be free to roam the whole Cyprus, thus making this problem worst

"thousands of foreign army and military camps". The Turkish army is here for a reason: To divide Cyprus. If Cyprus is partitioned with our signature then they would have achieved their mission and there wouldn't be any need for them to continue to be in Cyprus.

To limited free movement: for you a Cyprus where everybody can move freely may be the same with a Cyprus that you have to show an ID card and go through police control to move around your own country, but for me it is not. It's something that bothers me, as well as the fact that the crossings may be closed any day, as long as some TC minister or turkish general decides so.
As for going in North Cyprus as "tourists", this depends on you. I personally don't feel more of a tourist in North Nicosia than in Limassol.

I never showed any id to cross to the territory of Cyprus illegally occupied by Turkish troops, and I will never go to this territory until it is truly liberated. Therefore for me just "free movement" means absolutely nothing unless north Cyprus is liberated.

To non-recognition problem: the solution to this is to find a way in which all Cypriots will have the same status, in matters of international recognition.

Cypriots already have the same status in matters international recognition. Republic of Cyprus is recognized as the one and only state on this island, and this is not a problem at all. (only for the Turks)

To the property problem: First, how do you claim to know so much in detail which kind of solution I propose? How long do you know me? And who would we "compensate ourselves"?
Anyway, in an agreed BBF every refugee would either receive his land back, or get a compensation. As the situation is today, he gets neither. And that's the problem to solve.

Don't you support something like Annan plan? With Annan plan many refugees would not get their properties back and we (Greek Cypriots) would have to compensate those that didn't. Today at least Turkey is responsible to pay the compensations.

To settlers: obviously, you don't have enough contacts to TCs, if you claim they don't care about their identity.

There are many TCs here and for most of them the settlers is a minor issue (for some it is not an issue at all).

As to who would stop the import of more and more settlers in a BBF, the answer is obvious: the federal government.

The same federal government that can take no decision without the agreement of the TCs will somehow stop the import of Settlers through territory where the Turks will have full control? How?

To the army: the turkish army already divided Cyprus, that's history. In my opinion, it's a problem having thousands of foreign armies in our island (whether turkish or british), but also the great degree of militarization in our own GC and TC societies. And it's a problem even independently of the division of Cyprus.

The Turkish army only illegally occupies the north part of Cyprus. This is why they are still in Cyprus. Because if they leave now the RoC will exercise its sovereign rights over the whole island. But if partition is legalized then the mission of the Turkish army will be completed successfully.

I don't think you realize what the Cyprus Problem is. The problem is that the Turks occupy our lands. There is no such thing as "TC state" and the north part of Cyprus does not belong to the Turks.

[denizaksulu]

Again: democratic principles are for states.

Other bodies or organizations can adopt some of the democratic principles to one level or another, but when we are referring to a Democracy we are reffing to a state, not anything else. EU is not a democracy (but a union of democratic states). UN is not a democracy either. A family can not be a democracy etc.

EU countries are as independent as they want to. Any country can leave the EU if it decides to do so.

And again, this is a legalist argument. If someone really gives value to democracy, he would like democratic principles to be applied everywhere.

It is not "legalist", but a basic fact.

It is a basic fact for sure, and it's also a legalist argument. There is no doubt you 're right, but still this is avoiding the main question.

Are you saying that all other democratic countries in EU don't value democracy because they don't brake up their countries by means of ethnic cleansing?

No, I'm saying they don't value democracy because they accept to be ruled based on non-democratic principles.

Countries are not "ruled" by being members of EU. EU membership is voluntarily and countries can leave from the EU any time they want.

The TC minority doesn't have a state of its own. They are trying to create one by stealing our land and ethnically cleansing us. This has absolutely nothing to do with the German model.

You 're speaking about the way the TC state was created. This has of course nothing to do with the way the german states were created (it has though a lot to do with the way e.g. the bosnian federal states were created. And also the way many independent states were created: the most obvious example is Israel, but partly also states like Turkey, Greece, Czechoslovakia, among many others).

But I'm speaking about that. I'm speaking about the way the TC state will function inside a federational system. And this has similarities to the german model, among others.

There is no such thing as a "TC state" and there will never be since we will never accept such thing. We are living in the 21st century, not the era of the conquerors, and our model for the 21st century is definitely not Bosnia!

I disagree.

"Limited free movement". We don't care about moving freely in north Cyprus as tourists. Having 1 less tourist destination is hardly a problem. The problem is Turks having control over our lands.

"a part of the country living under a strange not-recognized status". And the solution to this problem is to recognize this part of the country as being a separate Turkish state? This is the "solution" of the problem????

"people not able to use their land or houses without even getting a compensation for it". Yes, people should get their lands back. The "solution" you propose doesn't do that for many of them and it actually makes it harder for them to get compensation since today Turkey is responsible to give compensations while with the "solution" that you support we would have to compensate ourselves.

"uncontrollable incoming from settlers putting TC identity under serious danger" The TCs don't care about their identity. And who would control the Settler issue after the "solution" you support. The Turks would still have control over north Cyprus and they could import as many Settlers as they want. Who would stop them? The difference is that these settles would also be free to roam the whole Cyprus, thus making this problem worst

"thousands of foreign army and military camps". The Turkish army is here for a reason: To divide Cyprus. If Cyprus is partitioned with our signature then they would have achieved their mission and there wouldn't be any need for them to continue to be in Cyprus.

To limited free movement: for you a Cyprus where everybody can move freely may be the same with a Cyprus that you have to show an ID card and go through police control to move around your own country, but for me it is not. It's something that bothers me, as well as the fact that the crossings may be closed any day, as long as some TC minister or turkish general decides so.
As for going in North Cyprus as "tourists", this depends on you. I personally don't feel more of a tourist in North Nicosia than in Limassol.

I never showed any id to cross to the territory of Cyprus illegally occupied by Turkish troops, and I will never go to this territory until it is truly liberated. Therefore for me just "free movement" means absolutely nothing unless north Cyprus is liberated.

To non-recognition problem: the solution to this is to find a way in which all Cypriots will have the same status, in matters of international recognition.

Cypriots already have the same status in matters international recognition. Republic of Cyprus is recognized as the one and only state on this island, and this is not a problem at all. (only for the Turks)

To the property problem: First, how do you claim to know so much in detail which kind of solution I propose? How long do you know me? And who would we "compensate ourselves"?
Anyway, in an agreed BBF every refugee would either receive his land back, or get a compensation. As the situation is today, he gets neither. And that's the problem to solve.

Don't you support something like Annan plan? With Annan plan many refugees would not get their properties back and we (Greek Cypriots) would have to compensate those that didn't. Today at least Turkey is responsible to pay the compensations.

To settlers: obviously, you don't have enough contacts to TCs, if you claim they don't care about their identity.

There are many TCs here and for most of them the settlers is a minor issue (for some it is not an issue at all).

As to who would stop the import of more and more settlers in a BBF, the answer is obvious: the federal government.

The same federal government that can take no decision without the agreement of the TCs will somehow stop the import of Settlers through territory where the Turks will have full control? How?

To the army: the turkish army already divided Cyprus, that's history. In my opinion, it's a problem having thousands of foreign armies in our island (whether turkish or british), but also the great degree of militarization in our own GC and TC societies. And it's a problem even independently of the division of Cyprus.

The Turkish army only illegally occupies the north part of Cyprus. This is why they are still in Cyprus. Because if they leave now the RoC will exercise its sovereign rights over the whole island. But if partition is legalized then the mission of the Turkish army will be completed successfully.

I don't think you realize what the Cyprus Problem is. The problem is that the Turks occupy our lands. There is no such thing as "TC state" and the north part of Cyprus does not belong to the Turks.

Piratis,

You say, "I never showed any id to cross to the territory of Cyprus illegally occupied by Turkish troops, and I will never go to this territory until it is truly liberated.

Did you cross over without showing any ID? Then you say you will NEVER go........

Not very clear

[Piratis]

I didn't cross at all. Last summer I visited 4 different countries in Western Europe. There is no shortage of tourist destinations. Therefore I really don't care having north Cyprus as just another tourist destination. Just having "free movement" is really not that big of a deal if it is not part of a solution that returns our lands under our rule.

[lovernomore]

I didn't cross at all. Last summer I visited 4 different countries in Western Europe. There is no shortage of tourist destinations. Therefore I really don't care having north Cyprus as just another tourist destination. Just having "free movement" is really not that big of a deal if it is not part of a solution that returns our lands under our rule.

You think anybody gives a shit? You're just a bigoted idiot. You not crossing is like going to the Vatican and refusing to see the Pope

These lands our under your rule in a sense, just like you we are Cypriots so it is by all accounts under Cypriot rule.

[Silenus]

These lands our under your rule in a sense, just like you we are Cypriots so it is by all accounts under Cypriot rule.

Impeccable logic...

[Viewpoint]

I didn't cross at all. Last summer I visited 4 different countries in Western Europe. There is no shortage of tourist destinations. Therefore I really don't care having north Cyprus as just another tourist destination. Just having "free movement" is really not that big of a deal if it is not part of a solution that returns our lands under our rule.

You think anybody gives a shit? You're just a bigoted idiot. You not crossing is like going to the Vatican and refusing to see the Pope

These lands our under your rule in a sense, just like you we are Cypriots so it is by all accounts under Cypriot rule.

We dont want him to cross over we can do without his sort, he will die in his own bigotry and this biggest punishment we can give these type of mentally distorted people is that they will never see the north ever again.

[Piratis]

I don't care to see north Cyprus under occupation, so not a cent from me will go in your pocket. I lose nothing, you do. The only ones who really care to visit north Cyprus in its current state are the criminals of the underworld who feel very comfortable in the criminal pseudo state in the north. Most refugees visited once or twice to see their homes, they were disgusted with the way you destroyed everything we have been creating for 1000s of years, and they don't want to set their food there again until north Cyprus is liberated.

[Viewpoint]

I don't care to see north Cyprus under occupation, so not a cent from me will go in your pocket. I lose nothing, you do. The only ones who really care to visit north Cyprus in its current state are the criminals of the underworld who feel very comfortable in the criminal pseudo state in the north. Most refugees visited once or twice to see their homes, they were disgusted with the way you destroyed everything we have been creating for 1000s of years, and they don't want to set their food there again until north Cyprus is liberated.

Tough luck you can die never seeing the north, which is a lot better than your shitty south which has no uniqueness or originality.

[Piratis]

I don't care to see north Cyprus under occupation, so not a cent from me will go in your pocket. I lose nothing, you do. The only ones who really care to visit north Cyprus in its current state are the criminals of the underworld who feel very comfortable in the criminal pseudo state in the north. Most refugees visited once or twice to see their homes, they were disgusted with the way you destroyed everything we have been creating for 1000s of years, and they don't want to set their food there again until north Cyprus is liberated.

Tough luck you can die never seeing the north, which is a lot better than your shitty south which has no uniqueness or originality.

On the other hand, north Cyprus is "original" and "unique" in that its native population has been ethnically cleansed and replaced with foreign imports, its culture and history destroyed and the names of places changed to irrelevant Turkish ones.

If I wanted to see Turkey (and I don't) I would visit Ankara, not the fake mini Turkey replica you illegally created on the lands you stole from us.

[Viewpoint]

I don't care to see north Cyprus under occupation, so not a cent from me will go in your pocket. I lose nothing, you do. The only ones who really care to visit north Cyprus in its current state are the criminals of the underworld who feel very comfortable in the criminal pseudo state in the north. Most refugees visited once or twice to see their homes, they were disgusted with the way you destroyed everything we have been creating for 1000s of years, and they don't want to set their food there again until north Cyprus is liberated.

Tough luck you can die never seeing the north, which is a lot better than your shitty south which has no uniqueness or originality.

On the other hand, north Cyprus is "original" and "unique" in that its native population has been ethnically cleansed and replaced with foreign imports, its culture and history destroyed and the names of places changed to irrelevant Turkish ones.

If I wanted to see Turkey (and I don't) I would visit Ankara, not the fake mini Turkey replica you illegally created on the lands you stole from us.

Yes the TRNC is very original unique and beautiful unspoilt unlike the south which is no different to any other shitty holiday destination in İbiza or Majorca where you can get fish and chips and beer just like back home and with over 2 million imports into Ayia Napa you can hardly talk. We love the north which is by far the better half of Cyprus and we will develop as we wish we dont need people like you and everyone is far better off that you stay south in your half of this island.