Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Sensible argument will cut no ice with some people,Deniz yegen...

You will just have to accept that once the Greeks touch anything,it will remaing Greek from there to eternity,no matter how and where and for how long history has marched on...It is by divine right..They are the chosen people...Hang on,that was the Jews,werent' they??? Oh,what the hell they can fight it out amongst themselves...We just have to bow to their eternal divine right to own all things they come in contact with...

You have the mentally of a thief (and I am not surprised given the kind of culture you grew in)

We didn't merely "touch" Cyprus. We are the vast majority of the population of this island for 1000s of years. And yet you believe that because you illegally occupy north Cyprus for a few years and you ethnically cleansed GCs from north Cyprus, that this makes north Cyprus yours. No mate, this doesn't make north Cyprus yours, it just makes you criminals.

You know exactly what I meant,Piratis...After more than 400 years of living in Cyprus you and your think-alikes still do not consider the TCs as Cypriots...You want to freeze history at the point it suits you...You are thinking is not only Hellenic it is also racist,elitist ,and bigoted...I never said North Cyprus was Turkish...But since you want to deny us our birthright,we have to live somewhere...For now,till you are prepared to accept us as equal citizens,in deed as well as word,the TCs can find secure shelter in the North part of Cyprus,away from your revenge and hatred filled grasp! You did your best to wipe out the TCs during 63-74 period and it backfired badly on you,my friend...When you've learnt your lesson and are able to show empathy and respect and understanding for the TCs,we can share our motherland in peace and harmony! Calling us names is not the way to go about it...

[Afroasiatis]

Your opinions or comments are free, but facts are sacred ...

Then you should try to find some facts, which prove your theory. The Turko-Mongolian genetic traces in Asia Minor is a fact that nobody doubts. But saying that modern Turks are genetically nearer to Mongolians and Greeks nearer to Swedes than to each other seems absurd to anyone who has met a big enough number of all of these peoples.

These findings show the migrations of man so your Turkish Nationalists are in for a big surprise if they think they can claim they are native to Asia Minor or their beloved "Turkey".

You don't understand: it's actually the most ultra-nationalist Turks which say similar things on genetics like you. Check pan-turkism or especially turanism: you seem to agree with much of their way of thinking.

[Piratis]

Sensible argument will cut no ice with some people,Deniz yegen...

You will just have to accept that once the Greeks touch anything,it will remaing Greek from there to eternity,no matter how and where and for how long history has marched on...It is by divine right..They are the chosen people...Hang on,that was the Jews,werent' they??? Oh,what the hell they can fight it out amongst themselves...We just have to bow to their eternal divine right to own all things they come in contact with...

You have the mentally of a thief (and I am not surprised given the kind of culture you grew in)

We didn't merely "touch" Cyprus. We are the vast majority of the population of this island for 1000s of years. And yet you believe that because you illegally occupy north Cyprus for a few years and you ethnically cleansed GCs from north Cyprus, that this makes north Cyprus yours. No mate, this doesn't make north Cyprus yours, it just makes you criminals.

You know exactly what I meant,Piratis...After more than 400 years of living in Cyprus you and your think-alikes still do not consider the TCs as Cypriots...You want to freeze history at the point it suits you...You are thinking is not only Hellenic it is also racist,elitist ,and bigoted...I never said North Cyprus was Turkish...But since you want to deny us our birthright,we have to live somewhere...For now,till you are prepared to accept us as equal citizens,in deed as well as word,the TCs can find secure shelter in the North part of Cyprus,away from your revenge and hatred filled grasp! You did your best to wipe out the TCs during 63-74 period and it backfired badly on you,my friend...When you've learnt your lesson and are able to show empathy and respect and understanding for the TCs,we can share our motherland in peace and harmony! Calling us names is not the way to go about it...

The Turks have been wiping out Cypriots for centuries, many 10s of thousands of Cypriots have been been killed by the Turks. And then you are trying to claim that we supposedly tried to wipe you out because in a conflict you started, apart from inflicting casualties to us you also had some 100s of casualties?

You are the racist since you what to continue imposing racist discriminations against the Cypriot people, like it was done during Ottoman rule, so you can have gains on our expense.

I deny to you no right whatsoever. I support for you to have the 100% of your human rights. You are the one who is denying to us our freedom and our human rights.

The fact that in Cyprus you are an ethnic minority in an island which is otherwise mostly Hellenic, is not a violation of any of your rights, but just a simple fact. Just because you belong to an ethnic minority this doesn't make you non-Cypriot

The Greeks have lived in places like Smyrna and Constantinople for many 1000s of years, and still they are today considered an ethnic minority, and the Turks call those places Turkish. And then you have a problem because we call our island Greek just because there is a small Turkish minority here? Ridiculous!

[Afroasiatis]

You do not want to discuss what a united Cyprus means but point to Germany as an example of what exactly? How "one man, one vote" is so called violated? I can also point to the United States where the President isnt really elected by popular vote but by an Electoral College where the over-representation of small US States have changed the results of at least 3 presidential elections.

Yes, that's what all I was saying more or less. That insisting on the "one man, one vote" because it's "european" is simply the wrong the reason . That doesn't mean that it isn't a good principle, but it just doesn't apply in Europe, not to 100% at least. What kind of solution is the best for Cyprus is another, much bigger subject.

But my friend, would any of these be acceptable to our TC brothers? Would they really accept a solution whereby the Greek Cypriots are free to live, work and move where ever they please in their own united country? Of course not....and that is why you do not want to go into the specifics of what a UNited Cyprus means to you because it would indeed be very undemocratic and you wouldnt be able to point to Germany as a reference. Any solution for a TC approval would need Turkey to be a guarantor power. Permanent derogations keeping GCs away from the north. A demilitarized Cyprus. A rotating Presidency. The ability for this northern state to be able to secede if it so chooses but still be able to share in the wealth of the south. I can go on and on with these silly TC demands. That is not a solution but a crime against the the RoC.

Look, I didn't want to go into the specifics of what united Cyprus means, first, because this is a very long and tiring subject, and second, because I don't hope much in a united Cyprus any more.

To try to make it short, regarding the things you mentioned that would come along with BBF, I think some are good (demilitarization), some could be good depending on the exact way they work (rotating presidency), some are simply not going to be part of an agreement and TC leaderships realize that (right to secession, restriction of free movement). That, out of the things you mention, leaves as negative elements the guarantee rights and the limitations on right to property and residence - both can be adjusted to a way that will make it acceptable. I believe it's possible to agree on a solution that will make it possible that after an intermediate period, there will be not much differences to the rights that a Cypriot citizen has with that of every EU citizen.

But for this to happen, both societies will need to believe in it and actively participate in the search for the best solution, and also start overcoming this mentality of "Greeks against Turks" or "GCs against TCs". I don't really hope that this will happen any time soon, it seems to me we are heading to a partition, so I have less and less power to take part in such discussions.

[Get Real!]

...regarding the things you mentioned that would come along with BBF, I think some are good (demilitarization),

So when does Turkey begin to demilitarize?

Or did you mean that only the RoC demilitarizes so the Turks can play the grand Vezir on Cyprus?

[Afroasiatis]

Again: democratic principles are for states.

Other bodies or organizations can adopt some of the democratic principles to one level or another, but when we are referring to a Democracy we are reffing to a state, not anything else. EU is not a democracy (but a union of democratic states). UN is not a democracy either. A family can not be a democracy etc.

EU countries are as independent as they want to. Any country can leave the EU if it decides to do so.

And again, this is a legalist argument. If someone really gives value to democracy, he would like democratic principles to be applied everywhere.

Yet again you are mixing apples and oranges.
How many votes does the Turkish minority get in the Bundesrat?

Do you know any country where an 18% minority is equated with the 82% majority, and at the same time smaller minorities are totally excluded?

Officially, there is not such a thing as a Turkish minority in Germany (the recognized minorities are Danes, Sorbs and Friesians, if I'm not wrong), and it certainly doesn't have a federal state of its own.

If the representation in federal organs in a future united Cyprus is based on federal state, let's say "sub-citizenship", and not on ethnic identity, this makes it no different to the german model.

But even if not so, TCs are never going to be fully equated with GCs in a federal Cyprus - this is just an exaggeration. If you ask me whether there are countries were minorities are recognized as equal communities, I already mentioned the examples of Bosnia and Belgium - it's another thing if we like them or not.

And this is what solving the Cyprus problem is all about. Making things right. We don't want to make Cyprus another Bosnia, nor Belgium (which is about to brake up).

If making north Cyprus Turkish, legalizing the ethnic cleansing and adopting some racist and undemocratic system that goes against our human rights is called a "solution" for you, then I wonder what you think the problem is.

Well, the problem is the situation we have today: limited free movement, a part of the country living under a strange not-recognized status, people not able to use their land or houses without even getting a compensation for it, uncontrollable incoming from settlers putting TC identity under serious danger, militarization and the associated risks, thousands of foreign army and military camps etc etc. This is what we need to solve.

[Afroasiatis]

...regarding the things you mentioned that would come along with BBF, I think some are good (demilitarization),

So when does Turkey begin to demilitarize?

Or did you mean that only the RoC demilitarizes so the Turks can play the grand Vezir on Cyprus?

It isn't really the ..National Guard that stops them from playing the role of grand Vezir, is it?

In fact, I'm quite sure they would have it more difficult to play this role, if there was no turkish army at all on the island.

[Get Real!]

...regarding the things you mentioned that would come along with BBF, I think some are good (demilitarization),

So when does Turkey begin to demilitarize?

Or did you mean that only the RoC demilitarizes so the Turks can play the grand Vezir on Cyprus?

It isn't really the ..National Guard that stops them from playing the role of grand Vezir, is it?

Are you saying that Cyprus’ 100,000 odd soldiers & reserves with firepower coming out their ears, is of no value and they should just toss it?

In fact, I'm quite sure they would have it more difficult to play this role, if there was no turkish army at all on the island.

Perilous speculative nonsense! Countries like Turkey don't go by rules based on scruples!

You just don’t understand the enemy do you?

[Oracle]

Your opinions or comments are free, but facts are sacred ...

Then you should try to find some facts, which prove your theory. The Turko-Mongolian genetic traces in Asia Minor is a fact that nobody doubts. But saying that modern Turks are genetically nearer to Mongolians and Greeks nearer to Swedes than to each other seems absurd to anyone who has met a big enough number of all of these peoples.

These findings show the migrations of man so your Turkish Nationalists are in for a big surprise if they think they can claim they are native to Asia Minor or their beloved "Turkey".

You don't understand: it's actually the most ultra-nationalist Turks which say similar things on genetics like you. Check pan-turkism or especially turanism: you seem to agree with much of their way of thinking.

Please check again what I did say and do not put words in my mouth. Did I mention Swedes? Or that Greeks need to be linked to "Europeans"?

But the facts I supplied, from the Turkish Journal of Pediatrics prove beyond a doubt the recent migratory patterns of the majority of people in Turkey and their claim to these lands is even more tenuous. So really, truly, a tenuous grip on Turkey is what your ultra-nationalist Turks want?

[Afroasiatis]

Please check again what I did say and do not put words in my mouth. Did I mention Swedes? Or that Greeks need to be linked to "Europeans"?

If I really misinterpreted what you said, then I'm sorry. But this is what I get from things like that:

The tribe came out of Africa and split into two. One went Easterly (you - bearing the spot) and the other went northwards and westerly (us).

The way I understand this, is that you have from the one (western) genetic side let's say the Arabs, the Jews, the Persians, the Greeks, the indo-germanic tribes of Europe (i.e. including Swedes), and from the other side Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese, plus those who migrated in Europe and Anatolia in a latter stage coming from the East, i.e. Turks, Hungarians, Bulgarians etc.

What would follow from this is that Greeks are genetically closer to Swedes (or to Arabs) than to Turks, and Turks to Mongolians than to Greeks. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, if that's what you believe, you'll find it very hard to convince anyone with has seen enough of all of these people.

The fact that around a quarter of Turkish children bares this blue spot (compared to one third in Hungary and more than half in China) doesn't say much new. That big numbers of people came in Anatolia out of Central Asia is common knowledge. Obviously these people left, besides their language, also some genetic traces. They mixed with the native populations, which were of varous ethnic origins, with the result of having today the modern Turks ( to which of course we should add the big numbers of Muslims fleeing from Balkan, Russia and Caucasus in 19th and 20th century, of which the majority was probably not of Turkic origin).

The genetic maps I've seen in the past showed a great similarity between Greeks and Turks - with the difference that Turks were more genetically diverse. If I find any of these in Internet, I'll post them here.


However, all of these genetic stuff is interesting only from a clearly scientific point of view. I hope you agree, that the results of genetic studies shouldn't matter at all to the question, which people has more rights on one territory. Otherwise, we would return in the times of Hitler.

But the facts I supplied, from the Turkish Journal of Pediatrics prove beyond a doubt the recent migratory patterns of the majority of people in Turkey and their claim to these lands is even more tenuous. So really, truly, a tenuous grip on Turkey is what your ultra-nationalist Turks want?

The main turkish nationalist theory on this right after Ataturk's seize of power, was the one of the origin of Turks from the indigenous Anatolian people. Obviously, these nationalists wouldn't be happy with these "mongolian spot" stuff. But from what I know, around at the time of WW2 there were some turkish nationalists attracted to turanist ideas, and these were the most racist and and far-right among them. With your last posts, you appear to have some common ideas with them. Of course, this doesn't automatically mean that these ideas are wrong.