Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

Yes, of course, we all know this (despite the practical limitations this theoretical equality has - but that's a different and very long subject).

But isn't this a bit of a legalist argument? I mean, practically, a big deal of decisions that shape our lifes are being taken in the EU-level, not in the national one. So, if these decisions are not taken democratically on the basis of "one man, one vote", how can EU claim this as its own principle, as "European mentality"?

Have you ever heard of a decision being taken without German or French approval?

Democracy.

In a Cyprus united under a BBF, no matter which type exactly, one thing is more or less sure: no decision will be taken without GC approval.

Will that be enough to make it democratic?

And vice versa with the TC's. Its not the legislation that will pass that I'm worried about, its the necessary legislation that will not pass that can screw this country up. The paranoia surrounding this small group of people is extremely dangerous.

[Afroasiatis]

Afroasiatis, EU is not a country but a union of separate countries. France belongs to the French, and Germany to Germans, and they decide what to do with their own countries. If they want to be part of the EU that is their choice. If it was unfair for them to be part of the EU, then they wouldn't join.

On the other hand north Cyprus does not belong to the TCs. It belongs 5 times more to us than them. So it is not up to them to decide the status of the north part of Cyprus.

TCs are a minority in Cyprus just like the Turks are a minority in Germany. So if you want to compare apples to apples that is the kind of comparison you should be making.

The fact that you bring EU as an example is a proof that what you support for Cyprus is not a united country but the creation of what in effect would be two separate countries which will be loosely associated with each other in the same way that we are today associated with Lithuania within EU.

If/when Turkey joins the EU this will not mean the "liberation of Constantinople", and similarly if we have such kind of "union" in Cyprus it will not mean the liberation of our occupied lands, since those lands will remain under the rule of the Turks.

Piratis, you forget that I'm not speaking about any solution I "support for Cyprus". That's another subject, everything at its time.

In my remark I wasn't speaking about my desirable solution, and how would that differ from yours or anyone's else, which is going to be the most functional etc. I was simply pointing out a contradiction. That if someone wants a solution based on "one man, one vote", then he can't make Europe to his flag. Because EU is exactly a union where this principle DOESN'T apply. That was all.


But some side remarks:

To your first point: the official EU decision-taking system is certainly unfair for the average German, but EU as a whole isn't unfavorable for the german state, on the contrary. Germany gains so much through EU that she can easily sacrifice the pure democratic principles for its citizens.

To if north Cyprus belongs to TCs or not, is a complicated issue. The fact is that since 77 it was accepted by RoC that a part of cypriot territory will be under TC administration.

To if TCs are a minority or community, you understand I hope that it's subjective. You consider them a minority, whereas the TCs don't see themselves as one: there is no objective reality on this. There is no official threshold defining when an ethnic group is allowed to rise above the minority status. What matters for the case of Cyprus is that since 59, the TCs have a community status, not a minority, and this is accepted by every GC government. So what's the point of coming back to this subject again and again?

[Me Ed]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

[Afroasiatis]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

[Me Ed]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

So don't you think the Kurds are entitled to the same privileges in Turkey as the TCs want in a unified Cyprus?

[Piratis]

Afroasiatis, EU is not a country but a union of separate countries. France belongs to the French, and Germany to Germans, and they decide what to do with their own countries. If they want to be part of the EU that is their choice. If it was unfair for them to be part of the EU, then they wouldn't join.

On the other hand north Cyprus does not belong to the TCs. It belongs 5 times more to us than them. So it is not up to them to decide the status of the north part of Cyprus.

TCs are a minority in Cyprus just like the Turks are a minority in Germany. So if you want to compare apples to apples that is the kind of comparison you should be making.

The fact that you bring EU as an example is a proof that what you support for Cyprus is not a united country but the creation of what in effect would be two separate countries which will be loosely associated with each other in the same way that we are today associated with Lithuania within EU.

If/when Turkey joins the EU this will not mean the "liberation of Constantinople", and similarly if we have such kind of "union" in Cyprus it will not mean the liberation of our occupied lands, since those lands will remain under the rule of the Turks.

Piratis, you forget that I'm not speaking about any solution I "support for Cyprus". That's another subject, everything at its time.

In my remark I wasn't speaking about my desirable solution, and how would that differ from yours or anyone's else, which is going to be the most functional etc. I was simply pointing out a contradiction. That if someone wants a solution based on "one man, one vote", then he can't make Europe to his flag. Because EU is exactly a union where this principle DOESN'T apply. That was all.

EU is a union of separate independent countries, it is not a country itself. Cyprus is a country and what we should have in Cyprus is what they have in every other EU country.

Did you really think that a united Cyprus means to brake up Cyprus into two separate independent countries which would then voluntarily be associated with each other in the same way that Portugal and Latvia are associated within EU??

But some side remarks:

To your first point: the official EU decision-taking system is certainly unfair for the average German, but EU as a whole isn't unfavorable for the german state, on the contrary. Germany gains so much through EU that she can easily sacrifice the pure democratic principles for its citizens.

Germans choose in a democratic way what is best for their own country and we should be allowed to choose what is best for ours, without being blackmailed by the Turks who keep 1/3rd of our island as hostage for this purpose.

To if north Cyprus belongs to TCs or not, is a complicated issue. The fact is that since 77 it was accepted by RoC that a part of cypriot territory will be under TC administration.

It is not complicated at all. The Turks are only illegally occupying what belongs to us by over 80%.

To if TCs are a minority or community, you understand I hope that it's subjective. You consider them a minority, whereas the TCs don't see themselves as one: there is no objective reality on this. There is no official threshold defining when an ethnic group is allowed to rise above the minority status. What matters for the case of Cyprus is that since 59, the TCs have a community status, not a minority, and this is accepted by every GC government. So what's the point of coming back to this subject again and again?

Being a "community" doesn't mean they are not also a minority. They are only the 18% and therefore a minority. Any gains that they received on our expense by collaborating with foreign Imperialists is part of the Cyprus Problem which needs to be resolved with any such gains removed from them.

[Piratis]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

So don't you think the Kurds are entitled to the same privileges in Turkey as the TCs want in a unified Cyprus?

I don't agree with this position. The TCs are a minority which was formed in Cyprus during Ottoman rule. No part of Cyprus ever belonged to the TCs, they were always a minority like say the whites of South Africa.

On the other hand the Kurds have been in their territory long before any Turks came and they are the majority of the Kurdistan area.

Therefore the TCs can not be equated to the Kurds. The Kurds deserve their own independent state of Kurdistan, since this is a territory which belongs to them. On the other hand the TCs are an ehtnic minority, and the territory they occupy today does not belong to them, they are only illegally occupying it.

[denizaksulu]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

So don't you think the Kurds are entitled to the same privileges in Turkey as the TCs want in a unified Cyprus?

I don't agree with this position. The TCs are a minority which was formed in Cyprus during Ottoman rule. No part of Cyprus ever belonged to the TCs, they were always a minority like say the whites of South Africa.

On the other hand the Kurds have been in their territory long before any Turks came and they are the majority of the Kurdistan area.

Therefore the TCs can not be equated to the Kurds. The Kurds deserve their own independent state of Kurdistan, since this is a territory which belongs to them. On the other hand the TCs are an ehtnic minority, and the territory they occupy today does not belong to them, they are only illegally occupying it.

Flipin 'eck Piratis. Why dont you just say Istanbul is Greek as well while you are at it. You are playing right into the hands of the partitionists who will fill the whole island soon with setlers and ****all you could do anything about it; since you will be the minority. You certainly know how to rub up the Turks shackles dont you.

[Oracle]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

So don't you think the Kurds are entitled to the same privileges in Turkey as the TCs want in a unified Cyprus?

I don't agree with this position. The TCs are a minority which was formed in Cyprus during Ottoman rule. No part of Cyprus ever belonged to the TCs, they were always a minority like say the whites of South Africa.

On the other hand the Kurds have been in their territory long before any Turks came and they are the majority of the Kurdistan area.

Therefore the TCs can not be equated to the Kurds. The Kurds deserve their own independent state of Kurdistan, since this is a territory which belongs to them. On the other hand the TCs are an ehtnic minority, and the territory they occupy today does not belong to them, they are only illegally occupying it.

Flipin 'eck Piratis. Why dont you just say Istanbul is Greek as well while you are at it. You are playing right into the hands of the partitionists who will fill the whole island soon with setlers and ****all you could do anything about it; since you will be the minority. You certainly know how to rub up the Turks shackles dont you.

Everyone knows Istanbul is Greek, including you, which is why you mentioned this.

[denizaksulu]

Do the Kurds have community status in Turkey?

No. They hardly have a minority status. And that, although their numbers aren't much lower than these of TCs, and they are even the majority in some regions.

Which shows again the subjectivity I mentioned in previous post.

So don't you think the Kurds are entitled to the same privileges in Turkey as the TCs want in a unified Cyprus?

I don't agree with this position. The TCs are a minority which was formed in Cyprus during Ottoman rule. No part of Cyprus ever belonged to the TCs, they were always a minority like say the whites of South Africa.

On the other hand the Kurds have been in their territory long before any Turks came and they are the majority of the Kurdistan area.

Therefore the TCs can not be equated to the Kurds. The Kurds deserve their own independent state of Kurdistan, since this is a territory which belongs to them. On the other hand the TCs are an ehtnic minority, and the territory they occupy today does not belong to them, they are only illegally occupying it.

Flipin 'eck Piratis. Why dont you just say Istanbul is Greek as well while you are at it. You are playing right into the hands of the partitionists who will fill the whole island soon with setlers and ****all you could do anything about it; since you will be the minority. You certainly know how to rub up the Turks shackles dont you.

Everyone knows Istanbul is Greek, including you, which is why you mentioned this.

Was!!!!....in your mind it still may be, but that is your problem.

Now legally not Greek.