Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

The Otto-Turks 'Subjugated' and still 'Subjugate' us, so we want to 'Liberate' Cyprus.

Then let us 'Librate' together equally both (G/C & T/C) to have a voice for the future of Cyprus as one.

I don't think the RoC would have a problem with the TCs helping the Liberation of Cyprus from Turkey. But the last time TCs had a chance to liberate Cyprus from the Colonialist Brits, they sided against GCs to create what we have now. What makes you think the TCs would fight against Turkey (which they consider closer) if they did not fight against the Brits?

I will not get involve in arguing why T/C joined the British Police Force that will be another topic we can discuss. So to answer your question, I am ready to librate Cyprus anytime with my citizen brothers and sisters in the South. But will only do so if you agree on these terms

Then let us 'Librate' together equally both (G/C & T/C) to have a voice for the future of Cyprus as one.

because I don't want to fight liberation if I get zero at the end. I can't answer for all T/C would they fight against Turkey but the average conversation around a BBQ does not revolve around 'I love Turkey Being Here' but yet at the same time they are our bloodline and security as much as we want to scream and shout.

You are not ready for Liberation if you are harking back to 'communities' sharing 50:50 at the expense of individuals. Your conditional demands for a privileged position are in conflict with Liberalism and a free Democracy for individual human beings. You are too close to Turkey. Such imperialist/fascistic conditions are anachronistic here in Cyprus. We fought against fascism in 1974. You did not help us then either.

Such mentality belongs in "Turkey". You should go back for your own and our (EU) peace.

50:50 Power Sharing is a much better deal than 100% one sided and this is why liberalism is never going to be achieved in your mind Cyprus is Greek Island, to have liberal democracy individual and equal rights must be in power of the people. So how can T/C fight together for liberation if G/C can not comprehend that T/C are also apart of Cyprus? Don't turn a blind eye on the South because as much as you accuse the North being too close to Turkey the same can be said with the South with Greece. Every UN resolution, isolation, EU accession is a fabrication of Greek and G/C politics working together to enforce on T/C.

No my "new TC" friend. It's not the "South" which is with Greece, but the WHOLE island state is part of the Hellenic Nation. The natives of Cyprus have always been regarded as Greek by all the invaders including, latterly, the Otto-Turks and Brits.

If you fight for Liberation of Cyprus, you do so to retain its Cypriotness and not to Turkify it with your Ottoman '50% ruling classes' shit. We are here to protect all the minorities of Cyprus not just the recent newcomer Turks from 1571 or the "TCs" from 1960 or the "new TCs" from 2010 ...

Take it easy Greek Caveman, Im trying to deal with the situation we have today replying to your posts not Before Christ who was here first.
Maybe T/C and G/C can both leave Cyprus and return it to choirokoitia settlers problem solved.

I don't have to go in for absurdities - those are the Turks' domain.

However, the GCs are as close to the Choirokoitians as anyone can get; so if you want to give Cyprus back to the Choirokoitians, the GCs are their modern-day representatives. So, no problem with your present proposal.

[Afroasiatis]

You are not ready for Liberation if you are harking back to 'communities' sharing 50:50 at the expense of individuals. Your conditional demands for a privileged position are in conflict with Liberalism and a free Democracy for individual human beings. You are too close to Turkey. Such imperialist/fascistic conditions are anachronistic here in Cyprus. We fought against fascism in 1974. You did not help us then either.

Such mentality belongs in "Turkey". You should go back for your own and our (EU) peace.

But the mentality "sharing 50:50 at the expense of individuals" is exactly the EU-mentality, not the turkish one - without saying that it's a good one. Isn't it a contradiction to be a part of a European Union, in which decision-taking clearly violates the "one man, one vote" principle, and at the same time claiming that the violation of this principle is ..turkish and not european mentality?

In this "liberal" "democratic" Europe, Cyprus of 800,000 is represented in the European Commission with one person, equal to Germany of 80,000,000. Even in the Parliament, the most democratic EU-organ, Cyprus has 6 MPs and Germany 96, i.e. the vote of one Cypriot weighs as much as that of 6 Germans.

[Oracle]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

[Afroasiatis]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

Yes, of course, we all know this (despite the practical limitations this theoretical equality has - but that's a different and very long subject).

But isn't this a bit of a legalist argument? I mean, practically, a big deal of decisions that shape our lifes are being taken in the EU-level, not in the national one. So, if these decisions are not taken democratically on the basis of "one man, one vote", how can EU claim this as its own principle, as "European mentality"?

[DT.]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

Yes, of course, we all know this (despite the practical limitations this theoretical equality has - but that's a different and very long subject).

But isn't this a bit of a legalist argument? I mean, practically, a big deal of decisions that shape our lifes are being taken in the EU-level, not in the national one. So, if these decisions are not taken democratically on the basis of "one man, one vote", how can EU claim this as its own principle, as "European mentality"?

Have you ever heard of a decision being taken without German or French approval?

Democracy.

[Oracle]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

Yes, of course, we all know this (despite the practical limitations this theoretical equality has - but that's a different and very long subject).

But isn't this a bit of a legalist argument? I mean, practically, a big deal of decisions that shape our lifes are being taken in the EU-level, not in the national one. So, if these decisions are not taken democratically on the basis of "one man, one vote", how can EU claim this as its own principle, as "European mentality"?

I don't think what you claim is entirely true. Whilst all human beings are equal and deserve only one vote in state elections to decide the outcomes within their own states; it must be recognised that some states are "worth" more than others to the EU as a whole; either through population size or economic resources. State are NOT people. Hence the differences in grants, handouts and contributions - each according to their means seems to be the common practice. This might be an argument as to why Turkey would be a liability.

[Afroasiatis]

Within each state, the individuals are equal. One French person has the same rights in France as one Greek person has in Greece. If within Cyprus the TCs had extra rights, above the other individuals of Cyprus, then that goes against EU and democratic principles. The rest is a matter of economics since some states are net contributors to the EU regardless of their size.

Yes, of course, we all know this (despite the practical limitations this theoretical equality has - but that's a different and very long subject).

But isn't this a bit of a legalist argument? I mean, practically, a big deal of decisions that shape our lifes are being taken in the EU-level, not in the national one. So, if these decisions are not taken democratically on the basis of "one man, one vote", how can EU claim this as its own principle, as "European mentality"?

Have you ever heard of a decision being taken without German or French approval?

Democracy.

In a Cyprus united under a BBF, no matter which type exactly, one thing is more or less sure: no decision will be taken without GC approval.

Will that be enough to make it democratic?

[Afroasiatis]

I don't think what you claim is entirely true. Whilst all human beings are equal and deserve only one vote in state elections to decide the outcomes within their own states...

Ok, no argument against the rest you say, but let's stay in that. My point is, even the outcomes within their own states are decided to be a big part by the EU. Why does an individual Cypriot's or Slovene's vote worth more than that of an individual German in this? Why is this acceptable, when you take decisions that will shape the life of everybody, similar to the decision taken on the national level?

[Me Ed]

I don't think what you claim is entirely true. Whilst all human beings are equal and deserve only one vote in state elections to decide the outcomes within their own states...

Ok, no argument against the rest you say, but let's stay in that. My point is, even the outcomes within their own states are decided to be a big part by the EU. Why does an individual Cypriot's or Slovene's vote worth more than that of an individual German in this? Why is this acceptable, when you take decisions that will shape the life of everybody, similar to the decision taken on the national level?

Can I kindly ask that you provide us with some real life examples of this.

[Afroasiatis]

I don't think what you claim is entirely true. Whilst all human beings are equal and deserve only one vote in state elections to decide the outcomes within their own states...

Ok, no argument against the rest you say, but let's stay in that. My point is, even the outcomes within their own states are decided to be a big part by the EU. Why does an individual Cypriot's or Slovene's vote worth more than that of an individual German in this? Why is this acceptable, when you take decisions that will shape the life of everybody, similar to the decision taken on the national level?

Can I kindly ask that you provide us with some real life examples of this.

Well, the one immediately coming to my mind is environmental legislation, which is the one I mainly had to deal with when I was student. For example, the nitrates or the sewage sludge directives affect the way each farmer in EU has to treat his land, and also the danger to people's health. If I'm not wrong, such directives are designed and proposed by the European Commission, then go through the European Parliament and then through the Council, which has the final word. At least that was the procedure in the latest soil protection directive.

The point, all these bodies, which will take a decision with influence on the work of every farmer in the EU and on the health of every EU citizen, are not elected on the principle "one man, one vote". But with a system, in which states with smaller population are overrepresented. I.e. a system in which one Cypriot's vote worths much more than one German's vote.