Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I have just one thing to say to you all those who continually argue as to who and what started first, WHO CARES, because, just because one may have started something first against the other, it does not mean that the other would not have started something themselves too against the other as long as Enosis and Taksim dreams were alive before and after the 1960 constitution was signed. The fact that such a constitution was allowed to be signed, only confirms that Enosis and Taksim was alive, which made the 1960 constitution a perfect "vehicle" to make Enosis and/or Talkim possible. We have already passed the "blame stage" already, so the ONLY question left to be answered is, are the TCs (Turkey) going to continue with their Taksim dreams in 2011, long after the GCs Enosis dreams have ended or what.? Any other discussion on this topic is totally a WASTE of TIME. By continuing to do so, ALL you are doing is this.......

Kikapu, for me "who started it" is not important because I don't want anybody to be punished. What I support is human rights and democracy for all Cypriots without racist discriminations and segregation.

Unfortunately some people do not want this to happen and they are trying to create excuses to justify their position. In their effort to create an excuse to impose on Cyprus some undemocratic, divisive and racist system based on the results of ethnic cleansing, they are lying trying to show that "GCs started it". This gives to me no other option than to respond and restore the historical truth about who really started it. I am doing this not because this is important for me, but to destroy their lame excuses which are unfounded and are not based on the historical truth.

I didn't name names, Piratis, as to who takes part in this constant merry-go-round on who did what and when.!

Nobody is forced to accept anything against their Democratic and Human Rights for a solution, Piratis. I won't accept it. If the time comes and we are asked to accept a solution based on Democratic and Human Rights violations, we can refuse it peacefully by just saying "NO".!

Kikapu, I don't think it is very productive to allow the leadership to negotiate an arrangement that will then be rejected.

Our leadership should know what the Cypriot people can accept otherwise such negotiations will be a waste of time (at the very least).

In know that behind closed doors our leadership receives an enormous amount of pressure and are being blackmailed by the Imperialists in an effort to force our leadership to accept their terms. But if our leadership is not strong enough to fight for our rights, then they should resign, and let somebody who has some balls (like the late Papadopoulos) to do the job.

They could also make a referendum now and ask the people directly to find out what exactly can be acceptable and what not.

[Piratis]

Piratis you are always playing the you started it first blame game your a bloody hypocrite.

I never said I don't play the game. Of course I play it. When you start this game do you think we will let you win it? What I said is that "who started it" is not important to me, and I only play along because you want to play this game.

Lets try again:

What we should have in Cyprus is democracy, respect of the human rights of all Cypriots, no racist discriminations and no segregation. Cyprus should be a normal country like all other normal democratic EU countries.

How do you usually respond to the above Viewpoint? Isn't your usual tactic to respond by lying about the past, trying to show that we can not have any of the above because GCs are "evil" who can not be trusted, while the TCs are the "innocent victims" who should now be rewarded on the expense of our human and democratic rights?

Do you expect us not to respond to such lies VP? Of course we are forced to respond, not because "who started it" is important for us (what is important is the future, not the past), but because you are trying to falsify the past and use it as an excuse to force in Cyprus some undemocratic, racist and divisive arrangement, that would screw up our future as well. We can't let you do that, sorry.

[Piratis]

Bananiot,

What Piratis and Co really want is to take IT all the way back to 1571.
They can then be 100% right...As far as the Ottomans go anyway...Nobody invited them to come!

What is clear to me is this : The hatred of all things Ottoman, and subsequently Turkish and Turkish Cypriot, goes back to 1571 and it is etched in these people's hearts and minds...It has always been about getting revenge or getting even. That is why they went for ENOSIS with Greece,a dream they sustained since 1820s...By making Cyprus a Greek island they would get even with the pesty TCs and reduce them to a sorry,despised minority they can humiliate at their will...That was what the Akritas plan was about,that was why they dismantled the True RoC,and that is why the had the Coup against Makarios...

Nothing has changed now,the aim is still the same...To reduce the TCs into a sorry minority and teach them a historical lesson...Now they try to hide it under 'democracy' and 'human rights' and 'EU principles' cloaks but the aim is the same...That is why the TCs,who know this well,have chosen to go back to their roots...If they are going to be dominated and humilated,they'd prefer it to be done by the Turks and NOT by the GCs...
It is that simple really...The game is over...There will never be a solution...Even a BBF is not acceptable to the majority of the GCs...There is not much left to be said...

What we want is our freedom, democracy and human rights, not any revenge.

Are the Latins a "sorry humiliated minority"? You are the one who says that the Latin rule in Cyprus was much worst than the Ottoman rule. Do you see us seeking any revenge from the Latins because of what happened in the past? They respect us and we respect them.

We don't want to "reduce the TCs to a minority" because the TCs have always been a minority. Reducing a group to a minority means that this group used to be a majority, and by certain means it was reduced to a minority. This is what the Turks did against us in north Cyprus. We have been the majority of the whole Cyprus (including the north) for 1000s of years, but in 1974, by means of murder and ethnic cleansing you reduced the GC population of north Cyprus to a tiny minority.

The opposite of "reduce" is "gain". And this is what the TC minority did. They collaborated and continue to collaborate with foreign Imperialists in oder to gain on the expense of every other Cypriot so they can have disproportionately large amounts of power, land etc on our expense and in this way overwrite democracy and equality among citizens.

Therefore Bir it is YOU who wants to reduce the GCs of north Cyprus into a minority by means of murder and ethnic cleansing, and at the same time you want to elevate the TC minority into the status of a majority, by overwriting the democratic principles.

The TCs are a minority of 18%, and the GCs the majority. We want nobody to be reduced and nobody to have gains. Every group should get what proportionally belongs to it, and all Cypriot citizens should be equal without any racist discriminations. Unfortunately you want the GCs reduced into a minority in north Cyprus, and the TC minority elevated to the status of the majority, and you want to achieve this by means of ethnic cleansing, brute force and blackmail.

[Bananiot]

Piratis, I know your source, a web site and an article written by an EOKA A and B man. Congratulations, you now consider these people as a trustworthy source. By the way, he claims that the Turkish Cypriots of Ashia were driven away not by EOKA but by the treacherous leftists who provocatively set the fences around their houses on fire!

Now, I remind you of what you said. You said that the TC killed was a policeman and as such, more or less he was a legitimate target. But, earlier you said that EOKA were instructed not to kill TC's. Have you also changed your mind on this issue too. I ask this because by now I take it that the intercommunal strife did not start in 1958 as you were trying for years to convince us but in fact it started in 1956.

Kyriakos Tziampazis is a very good friend of mine. I read excerpt from a number of his books before he published them. Is this a crime?

Now that you know of my friends can you please tell us about your friends?

[Piratis]

Piratis, I know your source, a web site and an article written by an EOKA A and B man. Congratulations, you now consider these people as a trustworthy source. By the way, he claims that the Turkish Cypriots of Ashia were driven away not by EOKA but by the treacherous leftists who provocatively set the fences around their houses on fire!

And what does your source say about the 7 GCs who were shot and injured the day before, the GC who was killed the day of the events and the 2 more GCs who were murdered 2 days later? Nothing? Or maybe these events are imaginary?

The source I posted was the only source about those events, and the website is owned by the Cultural Association of Assia.

But since you are trying to discredit the source I gave, I can do the same with yours. The only result with any info about your source "Κυριάκος Τζαμπάζης" comes from a Turkish owned site which publicizes his Turkophile views and his books which are apparently published in Turkish.

Now, I remind you of what you said. You said that the TC killed was a policeman and as such, more or less he was a legitimate target. But, earlier you said that EOKA were instructed not to kill TC's. Have you also changed your mind on this issue too. I ask this because by now I take it that the intercommunal strife did not start in 1958 as you were trying for years to convince us but in fact it started in 1956.

Those who collaborated with the British where of course legitimate targets. This had nothing to do with their ethnicity, but with the fact that they were helping the British. Many GC traitors were also targets for the same reason.

This was not an "intercommunal conflict" but a struggle against the Colonialists and those who helped them to maintain their rule over our island. Same like the Patriots and the Loyalists during the American Revolution.

If by "inter-communal strife" you want to include every incident between Cypriots and Turks, then you can go back not just to 1956, but 78 years earlier (and even before) to the time of Ottoman rule. So if you want to say that the Turks started the problems even earlier than that, feel free to do it. I have no problem with such an interpretation.

What I have a problem with is claims that there was no inter-communal conflict until 1963. And I will ask you again (because you failed to answer): Have we now agreed that 1963 was not the beginning of the inter-communal conflict and that in fact the Turks had started this conflict much earlier?

Kyriakos Tziampazis is a very good friend of mine. I read excerpt from a number of his books before he published them. Is this a crime?

Now that you know of my friends can you please tell us about your friends?

No crime, but as they say: "Show me your friends to tell you who you are". If he is a very good friend of yours this tells a lot about him.

I make my own independent research. I have no "friends" that spoon feed me, like in your case.

[Kikapu]

I have just one thing to say to you all those who continually argue as to who and what started first, WHO CARES, because, just because one may have started something first against the other, it does not mean that the other would not have started something themselves too against the other as long as Enosis and Taksim dreams were alive before and after the 1960 constitution was signed. The fact that such a constitution was allowed to be signed, only confirms that Enosis and Taksim was alive, which made the 1960 constitution a perfect "vehicle" to make Enosis and/or Talkim possible. We have already passed the "blame stage" already, so the ONLY question left to be answered is, are the TCs (Turkey) going to continue with their Taksim dreams in 2011, long after the GCs Enosis dreams have ended or what.? Any other discussion on this topic is totally a WASTE of TIME. By continuing to do so, ALL you are doing is this.......

Kikapu, for me "who started it" is not important because I don't want anybody to be punished. What I support is human rights and democracy for all Cypriots without racist discriminations and segregation.

Unfortunately some people do not want this to happen and they are trying to create excuses to justify their position. In their effort to create an excuse to impose on Cyprus some undemocratic, divisive and racist system based on the results of ethnic cleansing, they are lying trying to show that "GCs started it". This gives to me no other option than to respond and restore the historical truth about who really started it. I am doing this not because this is important for me, but to destroy their lame excuses which are unfounded and are not based on the historical truth.

I didn't name names, Piratis, as to who takes part in this constant merry-go-round on who did what and when.!

Nobody is forced to accept anything against their Democratic and Human Rights for a solution, Piratis. I won't accept it. If the time comes and we are asked to accept a solution based on Democratic and Human Rights violations, we can refuse it peacefully by just saying "NO".!

Kikapu, I don't think it is very productive to allow the leadership to negotiate an arrangement that will then be rejected.

Our leadership should know what the Cypriot people can accept otherwise such negotiations will be a waste of time (at the very least).

In know that behind closed doors our leadership receives an enormous amount of pressure and are being blackmailed by the Imperialists in an effort to force our leadership to accept their terms. But if our leadership is not strong enough to fight for our rights, then they should resign, and let somebody who has some balls (like the late Papadopoulos) to do the job.

They could also make a referendum now and ask the people directly to find out what exactly can be acceptable and what not.

Piratis, the rejection of the 2004 AP by the GCs by an overwhelming majority (76%) is all any GC leader needs to know how the GCs feel on the proposals for a settlement in Cyprus. There is no need to hold another referendum on what the GCs will accept or not accept during these negotiations since the 2004 referendum has already done that. I'm sure Christofias knows this very well, but in the event he does not and is pressured to accept something that will be rejected by the GCs again, then he can please the "Imperialist" all he wants by accepting their demands, because the GCs have the final word on any proposals put to them as they have do so before.

The TCs and their leaders should also understand, that insisting on unfair settlement proposals (2004 Annan Plan) that will be rejected by the GCs again, will not reward them with anything and that the status quo will continue. The ball is really in the TCs and Turkey's court to accept/reject proposals based on universal democratic principles. If the TCs and Turkey want to be part of the west, then their choices are pretty much limited as to what the GCs and the EU will accept. If they do not want to be part of the west, then they should also understand that the GCs will not accept any apartheid kind of a system in the 21st century and that they will prevent this from happening any way they can, as well as preventing the north from prospering at their expense and that they will use ALL political and legal means to achieve their goal, which will be their right to do so.

[Bananiot]

Piratis, with every post you make you reveal your distorted nature. You consider a crime the fact that Tziampazis's books are translated into Turkish. Your counterparts in Turkey consider it next to treason for Turkish writers to have their books translated into Greek. Take a good look at yourself, you do not differ one iota from the Grey Wolves. Your only problem is that the Turkish nationalism proved stronger than ours and they won the day. Now, all you do is talk about human rights, like a woman who has lost her virginity in "unfortunate" circumstances.

You have all along rejected a simple fact every body knows, that the problems were started by nationalists from both sides, each wanting to advance its own target. GC nationalism for enosis and TC nationalism for taksim. Then you started the blame game - who fired the first bullet - and now, sinking deeper into the nationalist shit you consider that people whose books are translated to Turkish, are traitors, like me. Shall I start naming books by great Greek writers that have been translated into Turkish? Will Dido Soteriou do for starters?

Regarding your own independent search, you can abolutely staff it, if you cannot filter out propaganda from obscure web sites and reports from EOKA people who have their hands dirty with the blood of innocent people. The only source as you say of the events applies to the internet, where every fascist can post but this does not make the source legitimate. Costas Sophocleous refers to the incidence in his book "Struggle for Peace" but of course you do not want to read books, you prefer to be spoon-fed by the fascists who are the cause of our predicament.

[Oracle]

The Otto-Turks 'Subjugated' and still 'Subjugate' us, so we want to 'Liberate' Cyprus.

Then let us 'Librate' together equally both (G/C & T/C) to have a voice for the future of Cyprus as one.

I don't think the RoC would have a problem with the TCs helping the Liberation of Cyprus from Turkey. But the last time TCs had a chance to liberate Cyprus from the Colonialist Brits, they sided against GCs to create what we have now. What makes you think the TCs would fight against Turkey (which they consider closer) if they did not fight against the Brits?

[Piratis]

Piratis, with every post you make you reveal your distorted nature. You consider a crime the fact that Tziampazis's books are translated into Turkish. Your counterparts in Turkey consider it next to treason for Turkish writers to have their books translated into Greek. Take a good look at yourself, you do not differ one iota from the Grey Wolves. Your only problem is that the Turkish nationalism proved stronger than ours and they won the day. Now, all you do is talk about human rights, like a woman who has lost her virginity in "unfortunate" circumstances.

You have all along rejected a simple fact every body knows, that the problems were started by nationalists from both sides, each wanting to advance its own target. GC nationalism for enosis and TC nationalism for taksim. Then you started the blame game - who fired the first bullet - and now, sinking deeper into the nationalist shit you consider that people whose books are translated to Turkish, are traitors, like me. Shall I start naming books by great Greek writers that have been translated into Turkish? Will Dido Soteriou do for starters?

Regarding your own independent search, you can abolutely staff it, if you cannot filter out propaganda from obscure web sites and reports from EOKA people who have their hands dirty with the blood of innocent people. The only source as you say of the events applies to the internet, where every fascist can post but this does not make the source legitimate. Costas Sophocleous refers to the incidence in his book "Struggle for Peace" but of course you do not want to read books, you prefer to be spoon-fed by the fascists who are the cause of our predicament.

I never said that your source did a crime so stop putting words in my mouth. On the other hand it is obvious from your words that you share the view of the Turkish invaders and the British Colonialists about EOKA and you consider EOKA fighters criminals.

EOKA fought for the freedom of Cyprus, and I trust EOKA 100 times more than somebody like you who is just repeating Turkish propaganda.

And you still didn't tell me what your source says about the 7 GCs who were shot and injured and the 3 GCs who were subsequently murdered in that event. Why? Is it because your source says nothing that could upset the Turks? Is it because you don't want to say anything that would upset the Turks even though it is written in the book you read? Tell me, what is the reason?

The simple fact that everybody knows, and which you refuse to accept, is that GCs fought against the Colonialists and not against the TC minority. You admitted that enosis was the right of the Cypriot people, and we have done nothing more than fighting to free Cyprus from foreign Imperialists as it previously happened with many other Greek islands and territories which were gradually liberated.

The inter-communal conflict started when the TCs collaborated with the colonialists and attacked us. I repeat: We fought against the Colonialists but the TCs choose to fight against us. We only responded to the Turkish aggression after we have been attacked. The TCs are the ones who initiated the inter-communal conflict, and this is 100% clear.

If you don't want to play the blame game then you and some others should stop trying to falsify history and blame the GCs for the inter-communal conflict, and I will have no reason to remind you about who really started the conflict. I am only playing the blame game because you provoke my reaction by trying to blame the GCs for something which we are not responsible for. (and you do this because you are trying to excuse yet more crimes against Cyprus)

[DTA]

Piratis regardless of who started it in 55 and who started it is very much not clear from what you wrote. The first major casualties and complete escalation came in 63 and that was very much down to the gcs surely even you will admit that. The events in 63 also saw gcs trying to change an agreed constitution that was only 4 years old (and say what you want about the constitution- it was something that you leader signed and therefore should have honoured), when the high court said that they would rule In favour of the tcs yourleadership said it would ignore the court. You killed tcs, you broke the constitution, you broke our partnership that saw Cyprus independent for the first time in it's history (something you would never have achieved without the tcs- because without the tcs partnership in the 1960 constitution turkey would never agreed to Cyprus independence- yet you betrayed your partners to hand our country on a plate to foriegn power (ie Greece)