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The Greeks and the Turks or is it the Turks and the Greeks

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Postby denizaksulu » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:42 pm

Piratis wrote:Genocide doesn't mean the killing of every single member of an ethnic group. The Ottomans murdered 10s of thousands of Cypriots when they first invaded Cyprus, more than 10% of the population. (if they killed everybody, then whom would they enslave and exploit?)

However now I am not talking about most part of the Ottoman era, but about the last years which are relevant to the article posted above, when the Turks started to commit genocides and ethnic cleansing against other ethnic groups of Asia Minor in order to create "Turkey" on lands which did not belong to the Turks.

The map I posted talks for itself. The whole west coast of Asia Minor was inhabited by Greeks. Where are those Greeks now and who occupies their lands?

The same can be said for the Armenians and all other Christian populations of Asia Minor, while the other non-Turkish Muslim populations (e.g. the Kurds) were not recognized as separate ethnic groups but were forced to become Turks.


So before the final victory of Mustafa Kemals armies, you are saying that the Greek Army of Occupation did not commit any ethnic cleansing and massacres. Come on Piratis. You know that is not true. Even Greek Generals of the above mentioned forces admit to and are ashamed at what took place before the Turkish victory and were indeed court-martialled for it.
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Postby denizaksulu » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:52 pm

Yalova and Orhan Gazi massacres
On 6 April 1921, Resit Pasha, the diplomatic representative of the Istanbul government in London. Submitted an aide-memoire to the British Foreign Office, informing it that the Greeks had massacred many Turks at Yalova and Orhan Gazi. When the Foreign Office asked its High Commissioner in Istanbul, Sir Horace Rumbold, about this incident,5 the latter replied as follows:
"There is little doubt in our minds from the details the French authorities have received that grave excesses have been committed in the Yalova and Orkhan Ghazi districts against the Mussulman population, and that these outrages are the work of Greek bands."7
At first, Allied observers felt that the murderous actions were those of local Greeks in quest of revenge for real or imagined wrongs. However, even British observers, who so wanted to find in the Greeks a positive force for Christian civilisation in the East, were forced to admit the nature of the Greek atrocities: which aimed at "a systematic destruction of Turkish villages and the extinction of Moslem population". Greek and Armenian bands, which appeared to operate under Greek instructions, carried out the plan, sometimes even with the assistance of detachments of regular troops, declared the Inter-Allied Commission report.29


Since: Oct 07


Following the Greek atrocities at Yalova and Orhan Gazi and Izmit peninsula, an Inter-Allied Commission was established. The Commission submitted its report to Foreign Office on 16 July 1921, via the Admiralty. In his covering letter Admiral de Robeck stated that, from a careful perusal of the report, it would appear that the majority of the crimes were perpetrated by the Greeks, including Greek regular officers and men, and that they were commenced by them.10 The report gave the following information:

During the past nine months parties of regular Greek soldiers with officers marched at intervals into villages in the neighbourhood of Bozalfat (Eser Koy) near Aghva. The Greek brigand Katsaros had been a visitor and behaved badly. Both Greek regular officers and men had raped women and committed robberies and acts of violence.
Greek soldiers took everything of value such as money, cattle and effects, having tortured the people. There were cases of murder and rape. Some villages were totally or partly destroyed. The villages of Mehter Koy, Lazlar Koyu, Armak Koy, Omer Aga Koyu and Aga Koy were totally destroyed.
Everywhere the Greek soldiers behaved savagely, killing men and raping women. They hung some peopler by their feet over straw fires. In the Beykoz area many massacres took place at Cubuklu and bodies were exhumed. They were buried fully clothed and shod, thrown together.
The historian Arnold J. Toynbee and his wife personally witnessed these atrocities.29

Meanwhile, the Greek authorities, who were embarrassed (!) by these excesses, were trying to turn the tables against the Turks by accusing them of counter-atrocities. According to McCarthy, in Anatolia the British, unlike their compatriots at the Peace Conference, often seem to have given little credence to Greek charges. For example, upon receiving a Greek report of Turkish atrocities in a place named in the report as Tatabazar, the acting High Commissioner, Frank Ratting, remarked: "The slaughter of 7,700 out of 8,000 Greek inhabitants of Tatabazar is untrue, and there is even doubt as to the existence of such a place. Possibly it is intended for Ada Bazaar, but no reports of wholesale massacre of Greeks has been received from that quarter".8 During the war, the British reported that the Greeks were ‘trumping up’ false atrocity stories against the Turks.2

The Greeks evacuated Izmit on the night of 28 June. The town was reported to be in flames; the Greeks probably started the fire before they left. A number of Turks were reported massacred by Armenians in Izmit itself. Both the Armenians and neutral Turks were terror stricken, but all the Greeks were evacuated by the Greek forces.9

On 1 July, General Franks reported that the Greek troops were retreating towards Yalova and burning all the villages in the coastal area. The Commission on atrocities went to Izmit on 30 July where they were well received by the Turkish Nationalists. There was no evidence of any massacre of Christians. Officials of the American hospital and French priests spoke highly of the Kemalists’ discipline and demeanour. However, atrocities of an appalling nature, including murder, torture and mutilation, were verified by exhumation. American evidence supported that these were committed by Christian, Armenian and Circassian brigands, assisted by drunken and undisciplined Greek troops whilst the town was in Greek military occupation. The Commission was of the opinion that the behaviour of the Greek army in retreat was "deplorable and unworthy of a civilised nation".
http://www.atmg.org/GreekBarbarism.html
may


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Postby lola-tulip » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:03 pm

Ethem wrote:They didn't commit genocides...from what I know Greece were the ones who invaded western anatolia and thrace with the backing of british prime minister Lloyd George, and the Turks fought back and took back what Greece tried to take by force


Seems you know very little :)

What was it that the Turks "took back"?

For example; places such as:

GREEK COLONIES ON THE ANATOLIAN COASTS, C. 1180–547 BC

Before the Greek migrations that followed the end of the Bronze Age (c. 1200 bc), probably the only Greek-speaking communities on the west coast of Anatolia were Mycenaean settlements at Iasus and Müskebi on the Halicarnassus peninsula and walled Mycenaean colonies at Miletus and Colophon. The major Greek settlement of Anatolia’s west coast belongs to the Dark Age (c. 1200–c. 1000). In contrast to the at best sporadic colonization of the Mycenaean period, this movement has all the characteristics of a migratio
n.


Encyclopedia Britannica

[As for your denial of the Genocides; you are, thankfully, in the minority.]
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Postby Daniella » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:10 pm

is there somebody who read "Churchill Folly" ( How winston Churchill created modern iraq) written by Christopher Catherwood ?
It could give you another perspective about what is happened for real in east mediterran in march 1921.
At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:11 am

Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.
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Postby Daniella » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:29 am

Get Real! wrote:
Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.


esatto :wink:
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Postby denizaksulu » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:31 am

Daniella wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.


esatto :wink:


:?:
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Postby BirKibrisli » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:32 am

Get Real! wrote:
Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.


Paupers who can put Israel in her place.Paupers whose economy is growing faster than any other European country...Paupers who have a seat in the UN security council...As I always say,there is no one as blind as one who refuses to see... :roll:
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Postby Daniella » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:34 am

denizaksulu wrote:
Daniella wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.


esatto :wink:


:?:


exatly
(apologise )
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Postby denizaksulu » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:36 am

Daniella wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Daniella wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Daniella wrote:At the same time while Resit Pasha were in london as a representative bla..bla...in El Kairah 3 person (only tree!!) were deciding what to do with the last crumbs of ottomanian empire.

Unfortunately, the last crumbs are here in Cyprus today and they're desperately trying to resurface to their former glory but thankfully times have changed and they can no longer compete in the modern world… they’ve been reduced to paupers.


esatto :wink:


:?:


exatly
(apologise )


I thought so. :evil:
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