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BRAVO CHRISTOFIAS!!!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:42 am

You don't see it as a compromise, because you continue to think the GCs and TCs as single bodies, and not each one as a individual. For the particular people concerned, it's a compromise to accept getting out of their home for the third time, for others to come back who only needed to get out once.


It doesn't matter how they see it, but how it is. It is not "their home". If it was "their home" then they wouldn't have to move out. Those who will have to move out are those who occupy properties that do not belong to them.


Not exactly. Through a solution many TCs will lose what is legally theirs in the South Cyprus.
But I repeat, the legality isn't the important point here.


They are going to lose what is legally theirs in the south in order to gain twice as much in the north. We are not the ones who asked for such thing. They asked for this because it suits them.

The important is to find a solution that will make lifes better for as much Cypriots as possible.


Really? Then why don't we have a referendum with all solutions as options and let the Cypriots, one person one vote, decide what is best for them?

Unfortunately the Turks are occupying our lands keeping them as hostage trying in this way to blackmail us and force us to accept a "solution" that will be better for their small minority and the foreign imperialists that support them, and NOT for as many Cypriots as possible.

Almost all political parties and all elected presidents of RoC accepted BBF as a solution. Even most of the ones who rejected Annan-Plan accept BBF in principle. And BBF means that a big part of North Cyprus will be under TC and not GC administration.

You're very correct on your second point, but this means that getting back Kyrenia is at least not in their priorities, if they think that having good chances for rousfeti is more important.


No president or party can liberate Cyprus and get back Kyrenia under the current balance of power which is why people vote for them based on things they can actually do.

For example DISY asked from its supporters to vote "yes" in the referendum on Annan plan. Just 1/3rd of them followed the direction of their party in what is the most important issue, but in the next elections almost all of them voted for DISY again.

Again, you see GCs and TCs as single bodies. I understand I'm not going to convince you that this way of thinking is wrong, in fact one of the reasons Cyprus ended up today as it is.
Bonds between normal average GCs and TCs always existed and still exist today, but if the status quo continues, there is a great risk that they will get weaker and weaker as time goes by.
As for the bonds of GCs with North, well, if you really think they don't get weaker through status quo, then what can I say.


Bonds between individuals will always exist. I have friends from all over the world and we live in totally separate countries. A divisive and racist "solution" not only will not help the bonds with TCs to increase, but on the contrary it will cause more problems, just like it happened in the 60s.

There is no contradiction and no double standards.

Turkey was able to invade Cyprus and carry out ethnic cleansing because the balance of power allowed it. But it is generally seen by the global public opinion as that, as an invading and occupying power. If a GC government does the same thing after 2000 years, because the balance of power will allow it, it will also be seen as a conqueror.


But here you are today suggesting that we should accept a "solution" that will legalize the Turkification of the north part of Cyprus. If we do that then Turks will get to keep north Cyprus without being seen as "an invading and occupying power".

So even if you are right, and we are also seen as a conquerors when we take our lands back (something which I disagree), then you think that after waiting for 2000 years we would have a problem to wait for a few more decades in order for our actions to become acceptable?

But you are wrong, and we are not going to be seen as conquerors but as liberators. The Jews are only seen as conquerors of the additional territory they took with the war of 1967, not the Israel state established in 1948.

And the "2000 years" is just an extreme example to show that time really doesn't matter as much as you believe. The balance of power can change in 20 or 50 or 100 years. And if we are not stupid to sign away our rights, then north Cyprus will legally remain as territory of Republic of Cyprus and we will have every right to liberate our own territory from foreign occupation.

But the most important mistake of this mentality, is that is still based on the logic of confrontation. Using your logic, the TCs should only wait for the next chance that the balance of power changes, so that they can take their revenge. And it goes on like that.

With my logic, we should take the situation as it is today and try to make the best out of it, even the solution is not perfectly fair to some individuals (for whom the status quo is unfair anyway). The most important thing is to overcome this logic of confrontation, so that in the future they'll will be no basis for similar events to occur.


So you suggest to end the confrontation by accepting that the Turks will have a final victory over us? No thanks. It is the Turks who started it by invading our island and it is them who should accept that Cyprus should be allowed to be ruled democratically by the Cypriot people. If they choose confrontation in their effort to take our lands then they should know that we will fight back for as long as it takes.

I think you see this very one-dimensionally. Some of these aspects are relevant (e.g. the thing with the civil service - although you also have to think that we speak about a time in which GCs dominated the private sector), but other aspects like security or propaganda played important role too.


I never said that there are no other factors. But the most important factor is the gains that TCs are promised on our expense. This is what remains unchanged from the 50s until today.

If the foreign imperialists didn't want to divide Cyprus, and they didn't use the TCs as their pawns by promising to them gains on our expense, then none of the other things would make a difference. Take Rhodes for example which united with the rest of Greece in 1948 and which also has a Turkish minority. Not a single nose broke over this.

It is, because the logic that the system works doesn't allow solutions that are fair to everybody. This applies to every capitalist country, in different ways. You can just take e.g. today's situation in Greece as an example.
So, we have to accept this as a fact, and, for the short-term, seek not a solution that is going be perfectly just to everybody, but one which will make the situation as better as possible for as much people as possible. In the long-term, we can make thoughts on how we can gradually improve the unfair sides of it.


The capitalism system is not an obstacle for a just coexistence of different ethnic groups. The Cyprus Problem is not about injustices between different classes, but one of foreign invasion and conflict between ethnic groups.

The kind of solution you suggest doesn't make life better for most of us, it makes it worst (which is why we rejected it). Not only that, but such racist and divisive "solutions" can only lead to more problems in the long term, and not anything better.
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Postby B25 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:58 am

Great Post Piratis.

Afrodisiac is talking bollocks again. hey why don't the GCs all just emigrate and leave Cyprus to the Turks??? Thats his simplistic gobble de bollocks talk.

FFS man, I can't believe you even claim to be a GC. A TC yes, or someone on a payroll, or is your name really Banana.

You are a danger to our community, no wonder EOKA had to take some of the measures it did.
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Postby Oracle » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:17 am

BirKibrisli wrote:
EPSILON wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Get Real! wrote:BirKibrisli,

I don’t have a problem with you admitting that you and your family were TMT members/participants, but I DO have a problem when you then say things like…

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed..


…to people like Piratis who did not even exist in those days!


In other words, I just can’t stand your ugly hypocrisy! :evil:


There is no hypocrisy,ugly or otherwise...

Piratis is a callous and dangerous GC propagandist who is trying to justify the pain and suffering inflicted upon the TC people during the 60s and early part of 70s...He is attempting to rewrite our bloody history to justify the treacherous act of wanting to gift my country to Greece...I am simply telling him that he will not escape the harsh judgement of history...Because the truth has a way of coming out in the end...


BirKibrisli, stop feeling that T/cs are the victims of this tragety we are leaving in Cyprus.

Start to be pragmatist and consider the "real fact" that T/cs ,as remains of Ottomans were just used by Turkey as their Trojan horse to re-enter and re-establish their lost rights in the Island.

Turks and T/cs are a "foreign body" in Cyprus. Only one way is available Cyprus to became Turkish. Turkish army to move and occupy the South also and to wait 400 years. -If no one appear in G/cs society to send you to hell then there is a possibility. You have other 360 years ahead..you hv to wait


Have you ever considered one thing...The Ottomans ruled Cyprus for over 300 years..That is a very very long time in recorded history...How and why did the GO Church and GC community came out of Ottoman rule stronger than ever before????Only logical and sensible answers will be considered... :wink:


Same reason Greece came out of 400 years of Ottoman rule as a strong independent and modern country. The reason being because the West, sickened into action by persistent Ottomans, came out in unison and drove them back. Cyprus, although not exactly stronger after 300 years of ottomans, went into the clutches of another ruler although it was one who, for a period of time, respected the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus. The same western force is gathering at the moment to liberate Cyprus from the second invasion and rule by Otto-Turks.
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Postby Oracle » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:32 am

Afroasiatis wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Afroasiatis wrote:
Oracle wrote:
So that makes it OK?


Who said it's OK?


You did. Here:

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that.


You approve of the end result (context being ethnic cleansing of Cyprus) if not necessarily admitting to acceptance of the means.



:? :?

How did you come this conclusion from what I said? Have you really followed the discussion between me and Piratis?

What I said there had nothing directly to do with Cyprus. It was a comment on whether Jews should have more rights than Arabs in Palestine, or Greeks more than Slavs and Turks in Macedonia, although not in the majority, just for historical reasons.

I think BirKibrisli is right: you want to hear from me a condemnation and not an explanation. I can give this to you, no problem, but do you think my condemnation really matters to Turkey?


I don't want your condemnation or apologies which BirKibrisli bores us with. You are just a forumer and your condemnation of Turkey is useless. There are important International institutions which condemn Turkey and that is good enough for me.

Back to your point.
So, are you now saying that your statement (quoted) applies to all other countries where natives have been usurped and a new language/culture imposed, but it does NOT apply in the case of Cyprus?

Are you saying that its is not the intention of Turkey to become the 'rightful owner' of the north of Cyprus by its rapid changes of village names to Turkish and expedient removal of as much of the Greek culture/heritage as is possible to do?
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:10 pm

Piratis wrote:But you are wrong, and we are not going to be seen as conquerors but as liberators. The Jews are only seen as conquerors of the additional territory they took with the war of 1967, not the Israel state established in 1948.


You have truly lost the plot,Piratis.
What Afro was saying is that the Turks will see you as conquerors,not liberators...Hence they will wait for the balance of power to change again to 'liberate' what you have 'conquered' from them...And it will go on ad infinitum... :roll:
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Postby B25 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:21 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:But you are wrong, and we are not going to be seen as conquerors but as liberators. The Jews are only seen as conquerors of the additional territory they took with the war of 1967, not the Israel state established in 1948.


You have truly lost the plot,Piratis.
What Afro was saying is that the Turks will see you as conquerors,not liberators...Hence they will wait for the balance of power to change again to 'liberate' what you have 'conquered' from them...And it will go on ad infinitum... :roll:


Thats total rubbish, how can you be a conquerer of your own country? If you are fighting within it is liberation. When you cross seas and land to a foreign country thats when you conquer it. The TCs are not indiginous to Cyprus, they are ex-conquerers, and so we have to liberate ourselves from them and their bother settlers. Now do you geddit?

Piratis is absolutely correct, Afrodisiac is just talking shit, to smokescreen the whole issue. And of course since you have so much admiration for for him, whatelse would you say. He is just another Banana to you singing your tune.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:21 pm

Oracle wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
EPSILON wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Get Real! wrote:BirKibrisli,

I don’t have a problem with you admitting that you and your family were TMT members/participants, but I DO have a problem when you then say things like…

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed..


…to people like Piratis who did not even exist in those days!


In other words, I just can’t stand your ugly hypocrisy! :evil:


There is no hypocrisy,ugly or otherwise...

Piratis is a callous and dangerous GC propagandist who is trying to justify the pain and suffering inflicted upon the TC people during the 60s and early part of 70s...He is attempting to rewrite our bloody history to justify the treacherous act of wanting to gift my country to Greece...I am simply telling him that he will not escape the harsh judgement of history...Because the truth has a way of coming out in the end...


BirKibrisli, stop feeling that T/cs are the victims of this tragety we are leaving in Cyprus.

Start to be pragmatist and consider the "real fact" that T/cs ,as remains of Ottomans were just used by Turkey as their Trojan horse to re-enter and re-establish their lost rights in the Island.

Turks and T/cs are a "foreign body" in Cyprus. Only one way is available Cyprus to became Turkish. Turkish army to move and occupy the South also and to wait 400 years. -If no one appear in G/cs society to send you to hell then there is a possibility. You have other 360 years ahead..you hv to wait


Have you ever considered one thing...The Ottomans ruled Cyprus for over 300 years..That is a very very long time in recorded history...How and why did the GO Church and GC community came out of Ottoman rule stronger than ever before????Only logical and sensible answers will be considered... :wink:


Same reason Greece came out of 400 years of Ottoman rule as a strong independent and modern country. The reason being because the West, sickened into action by persistent Ottomans, came out in unison and drove them back. Cyprus, although not exactly stronger after 300 years of ottomans, went into the clutches of another ruler although it was one who, for a period of time, respected the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus. The same western force is gathering at the moment to liberate Cyprus from the second invasion and rule by Otto-Turks.


The Ottomans had total power and domination over Greece and Cyprus for hundreds of years...If they wanted to they could've turned you into Eskimos let alone Turks in that time...But they didn't,and your language ,religion and culture came out pretty much unscratched...Why and how??? Answer that question...
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Postby B25 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:23 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Oracle wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
EPSILON wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Get Real! wrote:BirKibrisli,

I don’t have a problem with you admitting that you and your family were TMT members/participants, but I DO have a problem when you then say things like…

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed..


…to people like Piratis who did not even exist in those days!


In other words, I just can’t stand your ugly hypocrisy! :evil:


There is no hypocrisy,ugly or otherwise...

Piratis is a callous and dangerous GC propagandist who is trying to justify the pain and suffering inflicted upon the TC people during the 60s and early part of 70s...He is attempting to rewrite our bloody history to justify the treacherous act of wanting to gift my country to Greece...I am simply telling him that he will not escape the harsh judgement of history...Because the truth has a way of coming out in the end...


BirKibrisli, stop feeling that T/cs are the victims of this tragety we are leaving in Cyprus.

Start to be pragmatist and consider the "real fact" that T/cs ,as remains of Ottomans were just used by Turkey as their Trojan horse to re-enter and re-establish their lost rights in the Island.

Turks and T/cs are a "foreign body" in Cyprus. Only one way is available Cyprus to became Turkish. Turkish army to move and occupy the South also and to wait 400 years. -If no one appear in G/cs society to send you to hell then there is a possibility. You have other 360 years ahead..you hv to wait


Have you ever considered one thing...The Ottomans ruled Cyprus for over 300 years..That is a very very long time in recorded history...How and why did the GO Church and GC community came out of Ottoman rule stronger than ever before????Only logical and sensible answers will be considered... :wink:


Same reason Greece came out of 400 years of Ottoman rule as a strong independent and modern country. The reason being because the West, sickened into action by persistent Ottomans, came out in unison and drove them back. Cyprus, although not exactly stronger after 300 years of ottomans, went into the clutches of another ruler although it was one who, for a period of time, respected the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus. The same western force is gathering at the moment to liberate Cyprus from the second invasion and rule by Otto-Turks.


The Ottomans had total power and domination over Greece and Cyprus for hundreds of years...If they wanted to they could've turned you into Eskimos let alone Turks in that time...But they didn't,and your language ,religion and culture came out pretty much unscratched...Why and how??? Answer that question...


Because you Turks were/are too stupid to do anything else.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:36 pm

B25 wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:But you are wrong, and we are not going to be seen as conquerors but as liberators. The Jews are only seen as conquerors of the additional territory they took with the war of 1967, not the Israel state established in 1948.


You have truly lost the plot,Piratis.
What Afro was saying is that the Turks will see you as conquerors,not liberators...Hence they will wait for the balance of power to change again to 'liberate' what you have 'conquered' from them...And it will go on ad infinitum... :roll:


Thats total rubbish, how can you be a conquerer of your own country? If you are fighting within it is liberation. When you cross seas and land to a foreign country thats when you conquer it. The TCs are not indiginous to Cyprus, they are ex-conquerers, and so we have to liberate ourselves from them and their bother settlers. Now do you geddit?

Piratis is absolutely correct, Afrodisiac is just talking shit, to smokescreen the whole issue. And of course since you have so much admiration for for him, whatelse would you say. He is just another Banana to you singing your tune.


Logic is not your strong point,is it,B25???
You will see it as liberation,all right. I am not arguing with that...But since what you will 'liberate' ,by force of arms I imagine, would be somebody else's home for hundreds of years,they would see it as 'occupation'. And they will look upon you as conquerors and occupiers...Can you see that??? Everything is relative...There is nothing static or absolute about history,it is forever changing...I know that you want to believe that once some land is touched by Hellenism it must remain forever Hellenic,because Hellenism is God's gift to humanity,but other people do not see it like that,unfortunately for you...So ,if you 'liberate' Cyprus by force,those who live in the trnc will not see you as liberators but as occupiers who should be resisted till the balance of power changes again for them to strike back...Unless of course you are planning to kill off the entire Turkish race/nationality,once and for all,so that no one is left alive to attempt to get their homeland back...I wouldnt put it past you,to be honest... :(
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:43 pm

B25 wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Oracle wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
EPSILON wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Get Real! wrote:BirKibrisli,

I don’t have a problem with you admitting that you and your family were TMT members/participants, but I DO have a problem when you then say things like…

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed..


…to people like Piratis who did not even exist in those days!


In other words, I just can’t stand your ugly hypocrisy! :evil:


There is no hypocrisy,ugly or otherwise...

Piratis is a callous and dangerous GC propagandist who is trying to justify the pain and suffering inflicted upon the TC people during the 60s and early part of 70s...He is attempting to rewrite our bloody history to justify the treacherous act of wanting to gift my country to Greece...I am simply telling him that he will not escape the harsh judgement of history...Because the truth has a way of coming out in the end...


BirKibrisli, stop feeling that T/cs are the victims of this tragety we are leaving in Cyprus.

Start to be pragmatist and consider the "real fact" that T/cs ,as remains of Ottomans were just used by Turkey as their Trojan horse to re-enter and re-establish their lost rights in the Island.

Turks and T/cs are a "foreign body" in Cyprus. Only one way is available Cyprus to became Turkish. Turkish army to move and occupy the South also and to wait 400 years. -If no one appear in G/cs society to send you to hell then there is a possibility. You have other 360 years ahead..you hv to wait


Have you ever considered one thing...The Ottomans ruled Cyprus for over 300 years..That is a very very long time in recorded history...How and why did the GO Church and GC community came out of Ottoman rule stronger than ever before????Only logical and sensible answers will be considered... :wink:


Same reason Greece came out of 400 years of Ottoman rule as a strong independent and modern country. The reason being because the West, sickened into action by persistent Ottomans, came out in unison and drove them back. Cyprus, although not exactly stronger after 300 years of ottomans, went into the clutches of another ruler although it was one who, for a period of time, respected the Greek inhabitants of Cyprus. The same western force is gathering at the moment to liberate Cyprus from the second invasion and rule by Otto-Turks.


The Ottomans had total power and domination over Greece and Cyprus for hundreds of years...If they wanted to they could've turned you into Eskimos let alone Turks in that time...But they didn't,and your language ,religion and culture came out pretty much unscratched...Why and how??? Answer that question...


Because you Turks were/are too stupid to do anything else.


What are you saying??? That we were too stupid because we gave you enough freedom to practise your language and religion and culture for hundreds of years...??? And since you are not stupid,does that mean you are going to totally annihilate anything and everything Turkish from the face of the earth when the balance of power changes and you become the conquerors??? :? :? :?
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