Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...by demonstrating a tolerance that can be emulated and held in high esteem internationally, Turkey can be "defeated". defining Bicommunal in a manner where it is not a "Greek"/"Turkish" issue but a Person/Individual issue, we merit the recognition which has so far been dismissed. similarly, the repopulation of the island, which requires a single international identity while our National identitys' can be sustained and prosper; this would include Maronites and Armenians (and Romes) who have important historical interests here as well.

[Oracle]

So that makes it OK?

Who said it's OK?

You did. Here:

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that.

You approve of the end result (context being ethnic cleansing of Cyprus) if not necessarily admitting to acceptance of the means.

[Piratis]

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

Oh sure, it is a historical fact that we wanted to liberate ourselves from foreign imperialists like all other Greek islands, and there is nothing wrong with that. What came first was the Turks oppressing our island. If you had not invaded and oppressed our island, and we were allowed to be free, then Cyprus would have been part of the initial Greek State and there wouldn't be any need for a subsequent union. So don't play with me that "who started it first" game because historical facts show clearly who started it first, and that is a game you will always lose and come back crying "but Piratis you are not supposed to use the whole history to find out who started it. To find out who started it you should forget about the ... start. Thats how we Turks do it" It was you who invaded our lands, not us who invaded yours. It is you who came here to oppress us and enslave us. So yes, big fucking surprise that we wanted our freedom!

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Oh, I see. Let me try to be like you then: All Turks should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus because history proves that it is them who started it and now now they should pay the price of their crimes. Their human rights should be violated and their properties stolen.

Now let me be nice like you: What I said above is just 60% right. Of course not all TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus, just 60% of them. And not all their lands should be stolen, just 60% of them. And hey, they can even keep 60% of their human rights as well.

Better this way? Or you want me to be even nicer? I can claim that all Turks should be killed, and then be very nice and say that I am just 30% right. That would make me super nice isn't it?

Time to cut the crap Bir. What I support is democracy, human rights, equality among all citizens with no racist discriminations and no segregation. How can this be anything less than 100% right? On the other hand what you support are things like legalization of ethnic cleansing, undemocratic systems, racist discriminations, segregation etc and that makes your demands 100% wrong. And then you are trying to excuse your wrong demands with lame excuses such as "it is the GCs who started and they should now pay the price", but as I have clearly shown, it is the Turks who started it, and if somebody should pay the price that should be them. But since I am not "nice" like you, I never asked from the TCs to "pay the price" of what happened in the past, and instead I support democracy and equality of all Cypriots without any racist punishments and discriminations.

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

When did you accept anything other than partition? Annan plan was partition even worst than what we have today.

If you want "something that both communities can live with" then that something can not be any form of partition, legalization of ethnic cleansing, some undemocratic system, and our human rights violations because that is something that we can not live with. So either you will be able to live with democracy, human rights and equality of all citizens without racist discriminations and forced segregation, otherwise we will never agree with you, just like we would never be able to agree with Hitler who had similar views. Therefore our only option is to wait for the balance of power to change. You allow to us no other option.

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

You have only yourself and your greed to blame. You can cut the lame excuses and accept to be equal Cypriot citizens in a united and democratic Cyprus. Unfortunately you insist on Ottoman style gains on our expense because Turkey and the AngloAmericans promise to you such unfair gains.

Until you realize that those promises that they give to you are not because you actually deserve such things (50% power, 30% of the land, 30% of civil servants etc), but because they want to make sure we will never find a real solution in Cyprus so they can continue to serve their own interests on our expense, it might be too late for your community.

Stop trying to wrigle out of the facts,Piratis....
Demand for Enosis cane BEFORE Taksim,the EOKA was formed before TMT...You cannot argue with that...I am talking about events that took place in our lifetime...If you want to go back to 1571,and accuse the TCs of today for the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus,go ahead,but you will only b e a laughing stock in most sensible people's eyes...

It is indeed time to cut the crap...Crying foul over lack of democracy and human rights is a little too late,47 years too late to be exact...The time to think about that was during the 63-74 period,remember???? You forced the TCs out of government at gunpoint,made them go into safe enclaves for fear of their lives,and proceeded to ignore their plight for the next 11 years...That was the time to discover democracy and human rights...Not after 1974,the Greek Junta inspired coup,and the coming to power of one Nicos Sampson,an infamour TC hater and Cheif EOKA murderer of innocent British civilians and soldiers alike...So,you cut the crap,stop making excuses for all this,and accept your just blame for your part in this sorry saga...Then your demands for democracy and human rights might carry more weight...

The Annan Plan was a BBF,a good starting point for improved trust and understanding and cooperation between our communities...It meant significant return of GC land,and significant reduction of the Turkish soldier numbers over time...But you refused it because it wasnt 100% what you demanded...So if the status quo turns into official Partition,it is ALL your fault...100%...I dont want to see you come here and complain about it, because if I am alive I will remind you of our discussions now...

There was no greed involved on the TC side..It is all in your imagination...You simply say that to justify your demand for ENOSIS with Greece...Now that was some greed,some effort to grab all the power and reduce the TCs into a pitiful,illtreated,despised minority...All this is etched in TC collective consciousness,Piratis...Your historical revisionism and plain old misinformation and propaganda attempts will not erase it...Hence they prefer to become fully Turkish,rather than risk being at your mercy again...And I cannot blame them any longer,not after reading your posts,and the posts of your fellow fanatical GC propagandists/Turk-TC haters...You have a short window of opportunity to wake up to yourselves...I'd say 3 years at the most...After that 37% of Cyprus will become a state in the Federal Democratic Turkish Republic...Then you will really have to hope and pray,day in day out,that 'the balance of power' changes fast in your favour...Else you will not be able to stop the march of history towards its inevitable conclusion...What that is I will not tell you...Ask Bananiot...He knows what it is...

Didn't I tell you that Bir would come back crying that I should not mention anything about the beginning when talking about who started it? The only way they can argue is if they selectively choose the tiny parts of history that suits them and erase everything else.

My lifetime dear Bir started in the late 70s. If it is just our lifetime that matters then your stories about the 60s shouldn't matter at all to me just like you pretend that the crimes that the Turks committed against Cyprus before you were born are somehow irrelevant.

The Ottoman rule only started in 1571, but it continued until 1878. Thats just 80 years before you attacked us again in 1958 seeking to regain your Ottoman style privileges on our expense and collaborating, once again, with the foreign rules of Cyprus in your effort to prevent the Cypriot people from having their freedom.

What I support today is what our side has always supported. Even in the 1960s it was Makarios who made proposals for democratic reforms that would abolish the racist discriminations that had been imposed on Cyprus and make all Cypriots equal. You refused to accept the democratic reforms and you insisted that the racist discriminations stay in place. You then abandoned the government in your effort to force the government to collapse and you started committing crimes again.

The Annan plan was a partition plan that would legitimize the ethnic cleaning against us and the division of our island. It was a "starting point" for yet more demands of your minority on our expense just like when you blackmailed us and you forced us to sign the 1960 agreements. Don't you tell us about those agreements "If you didn't like them you shouldn't have signed them"? As they say: "Fool me once shame on you, foll me twice shame on me". Be certain we will not be fooled again, and we will resist your blackmail this time.


Partition is your fault because it is you who invaded our island in the first place and you who are trying to steal us much of our island as you possibly can. You refuse to accept for your small minority to be in Cyprus just like every other minority in every other country, and you collaborate with foreign imperialists to have gains on our expense. Partition has been your aim since the 50s and it continues to be your aim today.

The TC ARE a minority. The fact that you refuse to accept this fact and you want privileges of the kind you had during Ottoman times so you can overwrite democracy and our human rights shows clearly how greedy you are.

And don't try to fool us with "windows of opportunity" and such crap. There is no such "window of opportunity" for us today because the only thing that you accept is an official partition which not only would officially divide our island but would give to your small minority (and therefore Turkey) the control of the whole of Cyprus. You call that an "opportunity" ? You got the answer of what we think about this "opportunity" back in 2004. The Annan plan was an opportunity just for you to legitimize your crimes against us, and this is why you voted for it.

Either you like it or not we will liberate the north part of our country when the right time comes.

[Piratis]

I think there were many cases where TCs showed tendencies of making necessary and even hard (for them) compromises (e.g. the acceptance of the re-location of those who live on territory to be returned to GCs, something that means that some of them would become refugees for the third time). These could be even more, if there was a more encouraging atmosphere.

You can't compromise by giving back what does not belong to you in the first place.

If all the TCs would "compromise" is to give to us back part of what belongs to us, then the equivalent compromise from us would be to also give them part of what they have the right to based on the 1960 agreements. They might illegally occupy 1/3rd of the land, but we keep the 100% of the government and legitimacy. Do you think the TCs would accept to get less than what they had with the 1960 agreements as they expect from us?

The point is, if we "keep fighting" as GCs (really, what does this mean exactly? I don't feel that there is any fight going on from GC side, I feel that the GC society has generally accepted the situation as it is today), then the final victory will belong to the partitionists, no matter if Turks/TCs/GCs/Greeks. The time is their best ally.

The GC society has accepted that the situation as is today will continue since no solution is possible today. But the Cypriots (with a few exceptions of traitors) do not accept that the north part of Cyprus belongs to the Turks, and we will definitely take our lands back once this becomes possible.

Time is nobodies ally. For as long as they have the balance of power on their side Cyprus will remain partitioned, regardless of what name we give to this partition (just naming this partition "unification of Annan plan" doesn't change the essence that it is still partition).

Once the balance of power will change then we will take back our lands, regardless if that happens in 50 years or in 2000 years.

Actually, there is nothing wrong if they do what they believe it's the most profitable to them.
I believe that the average TC would have much more to gain from unity than from separation and division, provided that the GC attitude would be helpful to this. Remember, we don't speak about Denktash or Küçük, but the average TC peasant of 60s. Was the division and separation so helpful to them? Their social and economic situation deteriorated after 63, their culture is today under threat, and even the main point in favour of separation, their security, could be better guaranteed in a united Cyprus provided there were some serious measures for that.

There are many things wrong when you are tying to profit on the expense of the human rights of others. This is what criminals do, and it is certainly wrong.

When the TCs are promised things like 30% of land, 50% of power, 30% of civil servant positions etc as a reward for maintaining division, how can unity be more rewarding to them? The only way that division will not be more profitable for them is if we don't let them to enjoy those ill received gains. And that is exactly what we are doing which is why division didn't turn out to be as nice as they were hopping.

Sorry, then I misinterpreted what you said. In the part I quoted it seemed so as if you were implying that the fact that Jews were in Palestine before Arabs, and Greeks in Macedonia before Turks and Slavs, is something that should matter.

The point about the Jews and the Greeks is that it is never too late to liberate your lands even if 1000s of years pass and even if you have been ethnically cleansed from those lands for centuries. All that is needed is determination, to never write off your lands, and to wait for the balance of power to change in your favor.

I'd really like to see a JUST solution to the Cyprus problem now, without the need for the balance of power to change, but unfortunately such thing it is just not possible.

[BirKibrisli]

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

Oh sure, it is a historical fact that we wanted to liberate ourselves from foreign imperialists like all other Greek islands, and there is nothing wrong with that. What came first was the Turks oppressing our island. If you had not invaded and oppressed our island, and we were allowed to be free, then Cyprus would have been part of the initial Greek State and there wouldn't be any need for a subsequent union. So don't play with me that "who started it first" game because historical facts show clearly who started it first, and that is a game you will always lose and come back crying "but Piratis you are not supposed to use the whole history to find out who started it. To find out who started it you should forget about the ... start. Thats how we Turks do it" It was you who invaded our lands, not us who invaded yours. It is you who came here to oppress us and enslave us. So yes, big fucking surprise that we wanted our freedom!

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Oh, I see. Let me try to be like you then: All Turks should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus because history proves that it is them who started it and now now they should pay the price of their crimes. Their human rights should be violated and their properties stolen.

Now let me be nice like you: What I said above is just 60% right. Of course not all TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus, just 60% of them. And not all their lands should be stolen, just 60% of them. And hey, they can even keep 60% of their human rights as well.

Better this way? Or you want me to be even nicer? I can claim that all Turks should be killed, and then be very nice and say that I am just 30% right. That would make me super nice isn't it?

Time to cut the crap Bir. What I support is democracy, human rights, equality among all citizens with no racist discriminations and no segregation. How can this be anything less than 100% right? On the other hand what you support are things like legalization of ethnic cleansing, undemocratic systems, racist discriminations, segregation etc and that makes your demands 100% wrong. And then you are trying to excuse your wrong demands with lame excuses such as "it is the GCs who started and they should now pay the price", but as I have clearly shown, it is the Turks who started it, and if somebody should pay the price that should be them. But since I am not "nice" like you, I never asked from the TCs to "pay the price" of what happened in the past, and instead I support democracy and equality of all Cypriots without any racist punishments and discriminations.

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

When did you accept anything other than partition? Annan plan was partition even worst than what we have today.

If you want "something that both communities can live with" then that something can not be any form of partition, legalization of ethnic cleansing, some undemocratic system, and our human rights violations because that is something that we can not live with. So either you will be able to live with democracy, human rights and equality of all citizens without racist discriminations and forced segregation, otherwise we will never agree with you, just like we would never be able to agree with Hitler who had similar views. Therefore our only option is to wait for the balance of power to change. You allow to us no other option.

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

You have only yourself and your greed to blame. You can cut the lame excuses and accept to be equal Cypriot citizens in a united and democratic Cyprus. Unfortunately you insist on Ottoman style gains on our expense because Turkey and the AngloAmericans promise to you such unfair gains.

Until you realize that those promises that they give to you are not because you actually deserve such things (50% power, 30% of the land, 30% of civil servants etc), but because they want to make sure we will never find a real solution in Cyprus so they can continue to serve their own interests on our expense, it might be too late for your community.

Stop trying to wrigle out of the facts,Piratis....
Demand for Enosis cane BEFORE Taksim,the EOKA was formed before TMT...You cannot argue with that...I am talking about events that took place in our lifetime...If you want to go back to 1571,and accuse the TCs of today for the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus,go ahead,but you will only b e a laughing stock in most sensible people's eyes...

It is indeed time to cut the crap...Crying foul over lack of democracy and human rights is a little too late,47 years too late to be exact...The time to think about that was during the 63-74 period,remember???? You forced the TCs out of government at gunpoint,made them go into safe enclaves for fear of their lives,and proceeded to ignore their plight for the next 11 years...That was the time to discover democracy and human rights...Not after 1974,the Greek Junta inspired coup,and the coming to power of one Nicos Sampson,an infamour TC hater and Cheif EOKA murderer of innocent British civilians and soldiers alike...So,you cut the crap,stop making excuses for all this,and accept your just blame for your part in this sorry saga...Then your demands for democracy and human rights might carry more weight...

The Annan Plan was a BBF,a good starting point for improved trust and understanding and cooperation between our communities...It meant significant return of GC land,and significant reduction of the Turkish soldier numbers over time...But you refused it because it wasnt 100% what you demanded...So if the status quo turns into official Partition,it is ALL your fault...100%...I dont want to see you come here and complain about it, because if I am alive I will remind you of our discussions now...

There was no greed involved on the TC side..It is all in your imagination...You simply say that to justify your demand for ENOSIS with Greece...Now that was some greed,some effort to grab all the power and reduce the TCs into a pitiful,illtreated,despised minority...All this is etched in TC collective consciousness,Piratis...Your historical revisionism and plain old misinformation and propaganda attempts will not erase it...Hence they prefer to become fully Turkish,rather than risk being at your mercy again...And I cannot blame them any longer,not after reading your posts,and the posts of your fellow fanatical GC propagandists/Turk-TC haters...You have a short window of opportunity to wake up to yourselves...I'd say 3 years at the most...After that 37% of Cyprus will become a state in the Federal Democratic Turkish Republic...Then you will really have to hope and pray,day in day out,that 'the balance of power' changes fast in your favour...Else you will not be able to stop the march of history towards its inevitable conclusion...What that is I will not tell you...Ask Bananiot...He knows what it is...

Didn't I tell you that Bir would come back crying that I should not mention anything about the beginning when talking about who started it? The only way they can argue is if they selectively choose the tiny parts of history that suits them and erase everything else.

My lifetime dear Bir started in the late 70s. If it is just our lifetime that matters then your stories about the 60s shouldn't matter at all to me just like you pretend that the crimes that the Turks committed against Cyprus before you were born are somehow irrelevant.

The Ottoman rule only started in 1571, but it continued until 1878. Thats just 80 years before you attacked us again in 1958 seeking to regain your Ottoman style privileges on our expense and collaborating, once again, with the foreign rules of Cyprus in your effort to prevent the Cypriot people from having their freedom.

What I support today is what our side has always supported. Even in the 1960s it was Makarios who made proposals for democratic reforms that would abolish the racist discriminations that had been imposed on Cyprus and make all Cypriots equal. You refused to accept the democratic reforms and you insisted that the racist discriminations stay in place. You then abandoned the government in your effort to force the government to collapse and you started committing crimes again.

The Annan plan was a partition plan that would legitimize the ethnic cleaning against us and the division of our island. It was a "starting point" for yet more demands of your minority on our expense just like when you blackmailed us and you forced us to sign the 1960 agreements. Don't you tell us about those agreements "If you didn't like them you shouldn't have signed them"? As they say: "Fool me once shame on you, foll me twice shame on me". Be certain we will not be fooled again, and we will resist your blackmail this time.


Partition is your fault because it is you who invaded our island in the first place and you who are trying to steal us much of our island as you possibly can. You refuse to accept for your small minority to be in Cyprus just like every other minority in every other country, and you collaborate with foreign imperialists to have gains on our expense. Partition has been your aim since the 50s and it continues to be your aim today.

The TC ARE a minority. The fact that you refuse to accept this fact and you want privileges of the kind you had during Ottoman times so you can overwrite democracy and our human rights shows clearly how greedy you are.

And don't try to fool us with "windows of opportunity" and such crap. There is no such "window of opportunity" for us today because the only thing that you accept is an official partition which not only would officially divide our island but would give to your small minority (and therefore Turkey) the control of the whole of Cyprus. You call that an "opportunity" ? You got the answer of what we think about this "opportunity" back in 2004. The Annan plan was an opportunity just for you to legitimize your crimes against us, and this is why you voted for it.

Either you like it or not we will liberate the north part of our country when the right time comes.

Good luck,Piratis...I should know better than try to talk sense into you...
So what you are saying in short is ,we are 100% right and we will not agree to anything till we get 100% of what we want'...Great...

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed..
On your head be it...

[Piratis]

We made a ton of compromises my friend. Turkish as an official language of Cyprus for example. Why aren't Greek or Kurdish official languages in Turkey? But there are certain things that can not be compromised. Things like democracy, human rights and equality of Cypriot people without racist discriminations. You want me to accept 50% democracy, 60% human rights, and 65% racist discriminations? Sorry mate, but when it comes to these fundamental issues nothing less than 100% is good enough. Even if 100% is not possible we should always struggle and have the 100% as an aim. We can accept for you to have things that minorities in Turkey wouldn't even dream about, but we are not going to let you screw our most basic rights.

As I said in an earlier post I could do what you do and also start demanding outrageous things that would go against your human rights, and then be very "compromising" by accepting that your human rights need to only be partially violated. Would that be any better?

The damage to Cyprus is caused by invaders such as those you support. Those who insist on democracy, human rights and equality of all citizens without racist discriminations are those who are always remembered as people who fought for the right thing, regardless of how difficult the aim seemed to be. On the contrary you will be remembered as yet another fascist who wanted to take advantage of the military power of Turkey to impose on Cyprus some divisive "solution" based on ethnic cleansing and the human rights violations of 100s of thousands of innocent people.

[Afroasiatis]

So that makes it OK?

Who said it's OK?

You did. Here:

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that.

You approve of the end result (context being ethnic cleansing of Cyprus) if not necessarily admitting to acceptance of the means.

How did you come this conclusion from what I said? Have you really followed the discussion between me and Piratis?

What I said there had nothing directly to do with Cyprus. It was a comment on whether Jews should have more rights than Arabs in Palestine, or Greeks more than Slavs and Turks in Macedonia, although not in the majority, just for historical reasons.

I think BirKibrisli is right: you want to hear from me a condemnation and not an explanation. I can give this to you, no problem, but do you think my condemnation really matters to Turkey?

[Get Real!]

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed.. On your head be it...

They will indeed...

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:50 am

I know the official history of the EOKA and the TMT,bigOZ...
I will let others (preferably GCs talk about the rights and wrongs of EOKA)
but let me tell you a few things about TMT...The movement which produced TMT started much earlier,after the 2nd world war...It was a political movement called Volkan,and it s aims were to safeguard TC interests in case of a British withdrawal.My father was one of the founders of Volkan...when it was decided that an underground fighting force was necessary to combat any possible aggression from GCs TMT was founded...My father was a regional commmader in the Paphos area (he was also a teacher) and I remember our house in Yalya turned into an arms depot,with us kids as the guardians and protectors of the loot...Many a night I lay in bed snuggling up to handguns,stenguns,and granades,while British soldiers serched our house...Being British they never thought to look under the doona of a sleeping child or a sick (!) woman...and they never found the arms...while TMT was under the control of Dr Kuchuk and A>M>Berberoglu (my father's side) it functioned pretty much as was intended...But when Turkey decided that they needed "real action men" to run TMT Rauf Denktash and Burhan Nalbantoglu took over...Turkey threatened to kill Kuchuk and his supporters if they resisted,so they didn't...soon TMT was acting like a terrorist organisation in guise as a selfdefence organisation,putting fear into their own people,and killing and bombing strategic targets to achieve their ultimate aim,Partition...This is when my father,who was an honorable man,fell out with Denktash and Co and he was on their hitlist for a while...In fact Father was on the hitlist of EOKA as well,as they rightly suspected that he was the area commander in Paphos...But when the hitman finally arrived he was from the TMT,but by divine intervention,he turned out to be one of my father's former students...So instead of killing him he warned him of the danger,and I remember a time when we were on the move all the time to avoid a second hitman...
So dear, bigOz,I owe my exile to Australia to the TMT more than the EOKA...
This does not mean that TMT did nothing good for the TCs...or that all members were murderous thugs...But the leaders were,and they were kept in check somehow by the Turkish colonel in charge of TMT during the early 60s (Kemal Coskun code named Bayraktar,who was withdrawn to Turkey after the 67 events)...sorry to disappoint you,bigOz,but after more than 50 years of keeping silent about these things,I have earned the right to talk...It is upto you to believe me or not...But ask yourself,what motivation would I have to make all this up???All this information is in the public arena these days anyway...Read Arif Hasan Tahsin Hoca's column in Afrika and you will learn the truth about the TMT...warts and all...I want to stress the point that most underground organisations like TMT eventually end up serving the interests of those who control them,and not the general community interests...TMT was conrolled by Denktash locally and Turkey overseas,so it ended up serving their interests...In the process many good,honorable people who wanted to serve the interest of the TC people or the interests of all Cypriots were killed or sent into exile...I know you mean well,bigOz,and sorry once again if I woke you up from the dream imposed by Denktash and Co's propaganda machine...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus11396-10.html

[Afroasiatis]

I think there were many cases where TCs showed tendencies of making necessary and even hard (for them) compromises (e.g. the acceptance of the re-location of those who live on territory to be returned to GCs, something that means that some of them would become refugees for the third time). These could be even more, if there was a more encouraging atmosphere.

You can't compromise by giving back what does not belong to you in the first place.

This is just a legalist approach. We speak about people who lost their properties and houses already twice, and there were ready to do this for a third time, for the sake of peace and progress. That shows that, in principle, there is a willingness to compromise.

If all the TCs would "compromise" is to give to us back part of what belongs to us, then the equivalent compromise from us would be to also give them part of what they have the right to based on the 1960 agreements. They might illegally occupy 1/3rd of the land, but we keep the 100% of the government and legitimacy. Do you think the TCs would accept to get less than what they had with the 1960 agreements as they expect from us?

The TCs and the GCs aren't single bodies, they consist of various groups and individuals, who have different interests. The important is to find a solution which is best for most of them. If this is done, there is no reason why the majority of TCs and GCs shouldn't accept this solution, no matter what the 1960 agreements said.

The GC society has accepted that the situation as is today will continue since no solution is possible today. But the Cypriots (with a few exceptions of traitors) do not accept that the north part of Cyprus belongs to the Turks, and we will definitely take our lands back once this becomes possible.

Then why do the GCs in their overwhelming majority vote for parties and presidents who openly accept that the north part doesn't belong to GCs any more?

Time is nobodies ally. For as long as they have the balance of power on their side Cyprus will remain partitioned, regardless of what name we give to this partition (just naming this partition "unification of Annan plan" doesn't change the essence that it is still partition).

Once the balance of power will change then we will take back our lands, regardless if that happens in 50 years or in 2000 years.

Time is the ally of partitionists (GCs and TCs), because a new reality is created in North Cyprus day by day. Every day that passes makes re-unification more difficult, because the bonds between GCs and TCs, between GCs and North Cyprus, the TC culture itself which is a unifying element, get weaker.

As for what happens in 2000 years time, it's very questionable if GCs or TCs will still exist as group, and is very probable that due to climate change Cyprus will be a desert anyway, on which nobody would like to live. But even if we assume that nothing changes except the balance of power, if the GCs do a successful military operation to take over North Cyprus, they will be conquerors and not liberators. Just as Israelis in Palestine are faced by the global public opinion as conquerors. And just as the Greeks were going to be faced, if they decided to take over Izmir. Only a sick mind would accept that land belongs to somebody because of a reality which existed 2000 years ago. Especially after Hitler's defeat such ideas have less friends.

There are many things wrong when you are tying to profit on the expense of the human rights of others. This is what criminals do, and it is certainly wrong.

When the TCs are promised things like 30% of land, 50% of power, 30% of civil servant positions etc as a reward for maintaining division, how can unity be more rewarding to them? The only way that division will not be more profitable for them is if we don't let them to enjoy those ill received gains. And that is exactly what we are doing which is why division didn't turn out to be as nice as they were hopping.

It's not very probable that the average TC peasant would like a partition. Many people would have preferred to keep their houses and properties, and their relatives alive. Live in a situation which would allow them to prosper. And they would prefer to avoid a confrontation, as Cypriots are generally peaceful and conservative people, in my opinion at least. If they ended up preferring a partition, this was done first, through the propaganda of their leadership and second, through the attitude of the GC leaderships. I guess, one very important factor which made partition appear necessary to them was security.

I'd really like to see a JUST solution to the Cyprus problem now, without the need for the balance of power to change, but unfortunately such thing it is just not possible.

A just solution is anyway impossible in capitalism, injustice is one of its central elements. If there is once a socialist revolution, which will tear apart all borders between countries and peoples, then we can speak about a just solution.

For the time being, we have to find a solution inside the capitalist frame we live in. So, we should look for a solution will be bring as much improvements as possible to the lifes of as much people as possible.

[BirKibrisli]

The beauty of the digital age is that these little posts of ours will survive us,in all likelihood...future generations of Cypriots will be gobsmacked to see how intransigent your stand was...You will be condemned forever for causing untold damage to the people of Cyprus...Nothing will save you from history's judgement...And that judgement will be very harsh indeed.. On your head be it...

They will indeed...

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:50 am

I know the official history of the EOKA and the TMT,bigOZ...
I will let others (preferably GCs talk about the rights and wrongs of EOKA)
but let me tell you a few things about TMT...The movement which produced TMT started much earlier,after the 2nd world war...It was a political movement called Volkan,and it s aims were to safeguard TC interests in case of a British withdrawal.My father was one of the founders of Volkan...when it was decided that an underground fighting force was necessary to combat any possible aggression from GCs TMT was founded...My father was a regional commmader in the Paphos area (he was also a teacher) and I remember our house in Yalya turned into an arms depot,with us kids as the guardians and protectors of the loot...Many a night I lay in bed snuggling up to handguns,stenguns,and granades,while British soldiers serched our house...Being British they never thought to look under the doona of a sleeping child or a sick (!) woman...and they never found the arms...while TMT was under the control of Dr Kuchuk and A>M>Berberoglu (my father's side) it functioned pretty much as was intended...But when Turkey decided that they needed "real action men" to run TMT Rauf Denktash and Burhan Nalbantoglu took over...Turkey threatened to kill Kuchuk and his supporters if they resisted,so they didn't...soon TMT was acting like a terrorist organisation in guise as a selfdefence organisation,putting fear into their own people,and killing and bombing strategic targets to achieve their ultimate aim,Partition...This is when my father,who was an honorable man,fell out with Denktash and Co and he was on their hitlist for a while...In fact Father was on the hitlist of EOKA as well,as they rightly suspected that he was the area commander in Paphos...But when the hitman finally arrived he was from the TMT,but by divine intervention,he turned out to be one of my father's former students...So instead of killing him he warned him of the danger,and I remember a time when we were on the move all the time to avoid a second hitman...
So dear, bigOz,I owe my exile to Australia to the TMT more than the EOKA...
This does not mean that TMT did nothing good for the TCs...or that all members were murderous thugs...But the leaders were,and they were kept in check somehow by the Turkish colonel in charge of TMT during the early 60s (Kemal Coskun code named Bayraktar,who was withdrawn to Turkey after the 67 events)...sorry to disappoint you,bigOz,but after more than 50 years of keeping silent about these things,I have earned the right to talk...It is upto you to believe me or not...But ask yourself,what motivation would I have to make all this up???All this information is in the public arena these days anyway...Read Arif Hasan Tahsin Hoca's column in Afrika and you will learn the truth about the TMT...warts and all...I want to stress the point that most underground organisations like TMT eventually end up serving the interests of those who control them,and not the general community interests...TMT was conrolled by Denktash locally and Turkey overseas,so it ended up serving their interests...In the process many good,honorable people who wanted to serve the interest of the TC people or the interests of all Cypriots were killed or sent into exile...I know you mean well,bigOz,and sorry once again if I woke you up from the dream imposed by Denktash and Co's propaganda machine...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus11396-10.html

You are getting desperate,GR...I have many times explained that I was mistaken about TMT's actions regarding my father...The man who ordered his assasination was the area TMT commander,but he was acting for himself,for personal vendeta against my father....I was kidnapped by his thugs for the same reason...

In case you are wondering,I am proud of my father's involvement in the TMT...And proud of my little part in hiding our weapons..We were preparing to defend ourselves from a much bigger and better armed EOKA movement...The TMT as it was originally formed was what stood between the TCs and wide scale massacres...Looking back I can only be grateful that they managed to convince the GC paramilitaries at the time that we were much better armed and dangerous than we were...My father and his TMT comrades never fired a shot,but managed to stop any potential genocide by the EOKA thugs during the late 50s early 60s... I am also proud that my father was out of TMT by mid 1963,as he no longer believed in TMT's side agenda.... My father believed in Cypriot Unity not in Partition...I am proud of that as well...Let this too be recorded as such...