Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

You talked about the Greeks and Afroasiatis about the Jews. I should remind you that the Greeks inhabited north Greece long before any Slavs or Turks settled the area. The same with Jews. They inhabited Israel long before the Arabs took their lands.

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that. This would mean that the borders of most countries in the world would need to be redrawn, and many people would need to be driven out of their homes.

It would mean e.g. that the populations of France still speaking celtic dialects should have more rights to France than the French-speakers.

And what if the Arvanites in Greece were to prove the Pelasgian connection? This would mean that they, or the Albanian immigrants, should have more rights to Greece than the Greek-speakers.

What is not acceptable is the Turkish invasion, occupation and ethnic cleansing against us.

I never talked about anybody having more rights than another, I always talk about equal Cypriot citizens. It is the Turks that want such divisions, and not me.

If the Turks think that they can come and take from us the lands we have lived on for 1000s of years, then be certain that once the balance of power will change we will take our lands back no matter how much time will pass, either the Turks will like it or not.

[Afroasiatis]

Not many things in the future are foreseeable, especially when we are talking about the mid to long term future.

One of the things that is foreseeable is that unless there is a change in the balance of power there will not be any kind of agreement with the TCs since they demand all compromises to be made by us while they gain on our expense, and they make no compromise whatsoever compared with the 1960 agreements, which were already skewed in their favor.

If you can magically make the TCs to make the required compromises, then please work your magic and we will all be grateful.

I would also prefer unity and all those nice things you are talking about, but since such thing is not possible then the second best is to keep fighting until we win. Maybe it will not be a "final victory", but thats much better than allowing the Turks to have this "final victory" by surrendering to them our lands.

I think there were many cases where TCs showed tendencies of making necessary and even hard (for them) compromises (e.g. the acceptance of the re-location of those who live on territory to be returned to GCs, something that means that some of them would become refugees for the third time). These could be even more, if there was a more encouraging atmosphere.

The point is, if we "keep fighting" as GCs (really, what does this mean exactly? I don't feel that there is any fight going on from GC side, I feel that the GC society has generally accepted the situation as it is today), then the final victory will belong to the partitionists, no matter if Turks/TCs/GCs/Greeks. The time is their best ally.

There are always "some TCs" who will do the right thing. Unfortunately the majority of them will always do what they believe will be the most profitable to them. And unfortunately for as long as the foreign Imperialists promise to them huge gains on our expense, that is what the TCs are going to choose. If they have "something to gain" from anti-colonial struggle or "something to gain" from unity, is just not going to be enough if they have "a lot more to gain" from separation and division.

Actually, there is nothing wrong if they do what they believe it's the most profitable to them.
I believe that the average TC would have much more to gain from unity than from separation and division, provided that the GC attitude would be helpful to this. Remember, we don't speak about Denktash or Küçük, but the average TC peasant of 60s. Was the division and separation so helpful to them? Their social and economic situation deteriorated after 63, their culture is today under threat, and even the main point in favour of separation, their security, could be better guaranteed in a united Cyprus provided there were some serious measures for that.

What is not acceptable is the Turkish invasion, occupation and ethnic cleansing against us.

I never talked about anybody having more rights than another, I always talk about equal Cypriot citizens. It is the Turks that want such divisions, and not me.

Sorry, then I misinterpreted what you said. In the part I quoted it seemed so as if you were implying that the fact that Jews were in Palestine before Arabs, and Greeks in Macedonia before Turks and Slavs, is something that should matter.

[BirKibrisli]

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

Oh sure, it is a historical fact that we wanted to liberate ourselves from foreign imperialists like all other Greek islands, and there is nothing wrong with that. What came first was the Turks oppressing our island. If you had not invaded and oppressed our island, and we were allowed to be free, then Cyprus would have been part of the initial Greek State and there wouldn't be any need for a subsequent union. So don't play with me that "who started it first" game because historical facts show clearly who started it first, and that is a game you will always lose and come back crying "but Piratis you are not supposed to use the whole history to find out who started it. To find out who started it you should forget about the ... start. Thats how we Turks do it" It was you who invaded our lands, not us who invaded yours. It is you who came here to oppress us and enslave us. So yes, big fucking surprise that we wanted our freedom!

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Oh, I see. Let me try to be like you then: All Turks should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus because history proves that it is them who started it and now now they should pay the price of their crimes. Their human rights should be violated and their properties stolen.

Now let me be nice like you: What I said above is just 60% right. Of course not all TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus, just 60% of them. And not all their lands should be stolen, just 60% of them. And hey, they can even keep 60% of their human rights as well.

Better this way? Or you want me to be even nicer? I can claim that all Turks should be killed, and then be very nice and say that I am just 30% right. That would make me super nice isn't it?

Time to cut the crap Bir. What I support is democracy, human rights, equality among all citizens with no racist discriminations and no segregation. How can this be anything less than 100% right? On the other hand what you support are things like legalization of ethnic cleansing, undemocratic systems, racist discriminations, segregation etc and that makes your demands 100% wrong. And then you are trying to excuse your wrong demands with lame excuses such as "it is the GCs who started and they should now pay the price", but as I have clearly shown, it is the Turks who started it, and if somebody should pay the price that should be them. But since I am not "nice" like you, I never asked from the TCs to "pay the price" of what happened in the past, and instead I support democracy and equality of all Cypriots without any racist punishments and discriminations.

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

When did you accept anything other than partition? Annan plan was partition even worst than what we have today.

If you want "something that both communities can live with" then that something can not be any form of partition, legalization of ethnic cleansing, some undemocratic system, and our human rights violations because that is something that we can not live with. So either you will be able to live with democracy, human rights and equality of all citizens without racist discriminations and forced segregation, otherwise we will never agree with you, just like we would never be able to agree with Hitler who had similar views. Therefore our only option is to wait for the balance of power to change. You allow to us no other option.

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

You have only yourself and your greed to blame. You can cut the lame excuses and accept to be equal Cypriot citizens in a united and democratic Cyprus. Unfortunately you insist on Ottoman style gains on our expense because Turkey and the AngloAmericans promise to you such unfair gains.

Until you realize that those promises that they give to you are not because you actually deserve such things (50% power, 30% of the land, 30% of civil servants etc), but because they want to make sure we will never find a real solution in Cyprus so they can continue to serve their own interests on our expense, it might be too late for your community.

Stop trying to wrigle out of the facts,Piratis....
Demand for Enosis cane BEFORE Taksim,the EOKA was formed before TMT...You cannot argue with that...I am talking about events that took place in our lifetime...If you want to go back to 1571,and accuse the TCs of today for the Ottoman invasion of Cyprus,go ahead,but you will only b e a laughing stock in most sensible people's eyes...

It is indeed time to cut the crap...Crying foul over lack of democracy and human rights is a little too late,47 years too late to be exact...The time to think about that was during the 63-74 period,remember???? You forced the TCs out of government at gunpoint,made them go into safe enclaves for fear of their lives,and proceeded to ignore their plight for the next 11 years...That was the time to discover democracy and human rights...Not after 1974,the Greek Junta inspired coup,and the coming to power of one Nicos Sampson,an infamour TC hater and Cheif EOKA murderer of innocent British civilians and soldiers alike...So,you cut the crap,stop making excuses for all this,and accept your just blame for your part in this sorry saga...Then your demands for democracy and human rights might carry more weight...

The Annan Plan was a BBF,a good starting point for improved trust and understanding and cooperation between our communities...It meant significant return of GC land,and significant reduction of the Turkish soldier numbers over time...But you refused it because it wasnt 100% what you demanded...So if the status quo turns into official Partition,it is ALL your fault...100%...I dont want to see you come here and complain about it, because if I am alive I will remind you of our discussions now...

There was no greed involved on the TC side..It is all in your imagination...You simply say that to justify your demand for ENOSIS with Greece...Now that was some greed,some effort to grab all the power and reduce the TCs into a pitiful,illtreated,despised minority...All this is etched in TC collective consciousness,Piratis...Your historical revisionism and plain old misinformation and propaganda attempts will not erase it...Hence they prefer to become fully Turkish,rather than risk being at your mercy again...And I cannot blame them any longer,not after reading your posts,and the posts of your fellow fanatical GC propagandists/Turk-TC haters...You have a short window of opportunity to wake up to yourselves...I'd say 3 years at the most...After that 37% of Cyprus will become a state in the Federal Democratic Turkish Republic...Then you will really have to hope and pray,day in day out,that 'the balance of power' changes fast in your favour...Else you will not be able to stop the march of history towards its inevitable conclusion...What that is I will not tell you...Ask Bananiot...He knows what it is...

[Oracle]

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that.

I wonder why the Turks are slavishly renaming the occupied villages? I wonder why Turkey prohibits the usage of any language other than Turkish?

Colonialism? Is it still being practiced?

[Afroasiatis]

I wonder why the Turks are slavishly renaming the occupied villages? I wonder why Turkey prohibits the usage of any language other than Turkish?

It's one of the stupid practices inspired by nationalism. It's not the first time, the Turks did it earlier also in kurdish villages. As the Greeks did it in slavic villages (and slavic surnames). Greece and Turkey even had official committees for changing the names, for some time!

But as for the second part, I think it doesn't apply any more. The usage of other languages in public spaces isn't any more prohibited in Turkey. They even made a TV station in kurdish lately. There is of course much more to be done, but still, some steps to the right direction.

[Oracle]

I wonder why the Turks are slavishly renaming the occupied villages? I wonder why Turkey prohibits the usage of any language other than Turkish?

It's one of the stupid practices inspired by nationalism..

Why so tempered and forgiving to Turkey?

It's hardly "nationalism". Nationalism is more applicable at home. Taken abroad or across the borders of neighbours and used to remove traces of the ethnic identity of the native inhabitants it becomes invasion, expansionism and colonialism. Illegal!

[Afroasiatis]

I wonder why the Turks are slavishly renaming the occupied villages? I wonder why Turkey prohibits the usage of any language other than Turkish?

It's one of the stupid practices inspired by nationalism..

Why so tempered and forgiving to Turkey?

It's hardly "nationalism". Nationalism is more applicable at home. Taken abroad or across the borders of neighbours and used to remove traces of the ethnic identity of the native inhabitants it becomes invasion, expansionism and colonialism. Illegal!

Who said I'm forgiving? Who am I anyway, that my forgiveness or not would matter?

Nationalism is applicable where the nationalists see it as part of their national space. I guess most turkish nationalists see northern Cyprus as that.
But if you ask me, if you try to remove traces of the ethnic identity of the native inhabitants even inside your official borders, to rename their villages against their will, it should also be illegal.

[Oracle]

I wonder why the Turks are slavishly renaming the occupied villages? I wonder why Turkey prohibits the usage of any language other than Turkish?

It's one of the stupid practices inspired by nationalism..

Why so tempered and forgiving to Turkey?

It's hardly "nationalism". Nationalism is more applicable at home. Taken abroad or across the borders of neighbours and used to remove traces of the ethnic identity of the native inhabitants it becomes invasion, expansionism and colonialism. Illegal!

Who said I'm forgiving? Who am I anyway, that my forgiveness or not would matter?

Nationalism is applicable where the nationalists see it as part of their national space. I guess most turkish nationalists see northern Cyprus as that..

So that makes it OK?

Should we follow the law according to the wishes of the lawbreakers? If illegal occupiers euphamise their expansionist actions as "nationalism", then we should go with that?

[Afroasiatis]

So that makes it OK?

Who said it's OK?

[BirKibrisli]

So that makes it OK?

Who said it's OK?

Afro...You made the cardinal mistake of offering Oracle logical and considered reasons,edged in our common history, why Turkey might be doing certain things...That is not what she wants to hear..You must condemn Turkey at all times,on all things,without any reservation or explanation...That is the only way to please this lady...Now get to it...