Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Returning settlers to Turkey is made by some to sound as if they are being exiled into outer space.

They are being sent HOME, where they came from, where they have kin, and property and a whole web of relations and friends. So let us stop this "humane" bullshit about the return of settlers. The TRNC has been operating as a province of Turkey for the last 35 years, moving back to Turkey is no different for the settlers than moving from one part of Turkey to another. Fourteen million Turks had no problem moving from the remotest parts of Antalya to Istanbul in the last 15 years. They should have no trouble moving from Cyprus either.

They do not belong to a future independent, bicommunal and secular Cyprus.

[lovernomore]

Returning settlers to Turkey is made by some to sound as if they are being exiled into outer space.

They are being sent HOME, where they came from, where they have kin, and property and a whole web of relations and friends. So let us stop this "humane" bullshit about the return of settlers. The TRNC has been operating as a province of Turkey for the last 35 years, moving back to Turkey is no different for the settlers than moving from one part of Turkey to another. Fourteen million Turks had no problem moving from the remotest parts of Antalya to Istanbul in the last 15 years. They should have no trouble moving from Cyprus either.

They do not belong to a future independent, bicommunal and secular Cyprus.

There is a difference with doing something by choice and doing something by force.

[Get Real!]

They do not belong to a future independent, bicommunal and secular Cyprus.

There is a difference with doing something by choice and doing something by force.

Tell that to the 185,000 refugees you ethnically cleansed you Turkish heap of shit!

Now get out of my sight!

[Viewpoint]

The Cyprus problem was created by the historical and geopolitical factors dominant at the time...It is pointless to argue what happened first,who was most to blame,who suffered more and for longer etc...That will get us nowhere simply because even if we happen,by some miracle, to agree on everything, the solution will depend on todays conditions and geopolitical determinations...some people are trying to reduce the Cyprus problem to a matter of international law and sovereignty etc...This will never work...As Bananiot keeps telling us,international conflicts are not determined or settled according to who is right and who is wrong,or how much blame to assign to each party...

Similarly,the land issues and the settler issue cannot and will not be determined simply by which community owns how much,or what is the right number of settlers to allow as citizens after a solution...Both will depend on the nature of the solution...If ,as it seems more and more likely,that the realistic solution will come in form of a BBF,each founding state will need to have enough land and resources,including human resources,to have a reasonable chance of fulfilling its requirements under the federal constitution...This will require a lot of compromise from both sides...When if comes to the settler issue,I'd like to see a humanitarian approach,which will not cause any further pain and suffering for these unfortunate people,who have found themselves hostages in an internationally created national/geopolitical/ethnic conflict...

But I fear that most people here are simply about getting even,avenging what they consider to be past wrongs done to them by the other side..a fair and realistic solution is not what they want..They are going for the maximum gain, and the maximum pain they can inflict on the other side...
Hence the reason why we ,here,and the powers that be in the real world,cannot agree on anything...The solution when it comes,and it will come sooner or later,will not be our own making,but what suits the main players in this tragicomedy...Unless,again by some miracle,we decide that we will try to manage our own destiny,and as Cypriots demand that our interests come first...For that to happen we need to first foster trust,understanding,and respect for each other...And here I come back full circle to the need for empathy,and compassion,as mature,intelligent people who can finally put the interests of their homeland above all else...
From what I gather from reading this forum our chances of success is zero or very close to it...

Bir, you are the first one to start the blame game trying (and failing) to show that what happened in the past is our fault and therefore Greek Cypriots should now "pay the price". Isn't that "avenging what you consider to be past wrongs"?

Unfortunately a "fair solution" and a "realistic solution" (under the current balance of power) are two very different things.

You have to decide if you want a fair solution, or if you want to take advantage of the current balance of power and try to get a "solution" which will favor you on our expense.

If you choose a "fair solution" then we can agree tomorrow. If you choose a "realistic solution", then we will not agree now, because we would rather wait (for as long as it takes) for the realities to change in a way that will favor us, and get a solution then by liberating Cyprus and forcing our terms, in the same way you are forcing partition and your terms on us now.

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

Again another great post Bir, well said.

[BirKibrisli]

The Cyprus problem was created by the historical and geopolitical factors dominant at the time...It is pointless to argue what happened first,who was most to blame,who suffered more and for longer etc...That will get us nowhere simply because even if we happen,by some miracle, to agree on everything, the solution will depend on todays conditions and geopolitical determinations...some people are trying to reduce the Cyprus problem to a matter of international law and sovereignty etc...This will never work...As Bananiot keeps telling us,international conflicts are not determined or settled according to who is right and who is wrong,or how much blame to assign to each party...

Similarly,the land issues and the settler issue cannot and will not be determined simply by which community owns how much,or what is the right number of settlers to allow as citizens after a solution...Both will depend on the nature of the solution...If ,as it seems more and more likely,that the realistic solution will come in form of a BBF,each founding state will need to have enough land and resources,including human resources,to have a reasonable chance of fulfilling its requirements under the federal constitution...This will require a lot of compromise from both sides...When if comes to the settler issue,I'd like to see a humanitarian approach,which will not cause any further pain and suffering for these unfortunate people,who have found themselves hostages in an internationally created national/geopolitical/ethnic conflict...

But I fear that most people here are simply about getting even,avenging what they consider to be past wrongs done to them by the other side..a fair and realistic solution is not what they want..They are going for the maximum gain, and the maximum pain they can inflict on the other side...
Hence the reason why we ,here,and the powers that be in the real world,cannot agree on anything...The solution when it comes,and it will come sooner or later,will not be our own making,but what suits the main players in this tragicomedy...Unless,again by some miracle,we decide that we will try to manage our own destiny,and as Cypriots demand that our interests come first...For that to happen we need to first foster trust,understanding,and respect for each other...And here I come back full circle to the need for empathy,and compassion,as mature,intelligent people who can finally put the interests of their homeland above all else...
From what I gather from reading this forum our chances of success is zero or very close to it...

Bir, you are the first one to start the blame game trying (and failing) to show that what happened in the past is our fault and therefore Greek Cypriots should now "pay the price". Isn't that "avenging what you consider to be past wrongs"?

Unfortunately a "fair solution" and a "realistic solution" (under the current balance of power) are two very different things.

You have to decide if you want a fair solution, or if you want to take advantage of the current balance of power and try to get a "solution" which will favor you on our expense.

If you choose a "fair solution" then we can agree tomorrow. If you choose a "realistic solution", then we will not agree now, because we would rather wait (for as long as it takes) for the realities to change in a way that will favor us, and get a solution then by liberating Cyprus and forcing our terms, in the same way you are forcing partition and your terms on us now.

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

Again another great post Bir, well said.

Thank you,VP...

[ZoC]

Thank you,VP...

i see BirK has moved entirely over to the dark side.

[Piratis]

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

Oh sure, it is a historical fact that we wanted to liberate ourselves from foreign imperialists like all other Greek islands, and there is nothing wrong with that. What came first was the Turks oppressing our island. If you had not invaded and oppressed our island, and we were allowed to be free, then Cyprus would have been part of the initial Greek State and there wouldn't be any need for a subsequent union. So don't play with me that "who started it first" game because historical facts show clearly who started it first, and that is a game you will always lose and come back crying "but Piratis you are not supposed to use the whole history to find out who started it. To find out who started it you should forget about the ... start. Thats how we Turks do it" It was you who invaded our lands, not us who invaded yours. It is you who came here to oppress us and enslave us. So yes, big fucking surprise that we wanted our freedom!

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Oh, I see. Let me try to be like you then: All Turks should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus because history proves that it is them who started it and now now they should pay the price of their crimes. Their human rights should be violated and their properties stolen.

Now let me be nice like you: What I said above is just 60% right. Of course not all TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus, just 60% of them. And not all their lands should be stolen, just 60% of them. And hey, they can even keep 60% of their human rights as well.

Better this way? Or you want me to be even nicer? I can claim that all Turks should be killed, and then be very nice and say that I am just 30% right. That would make me super nice isn't it?

Time to cut the crap Bir. What I support is democracy, human rights, equality among all citizens with no racist discriminations and no segregation. How can this be anything less than 100% right? On the other hand what you support are things like legalization of ethnic cleansing, undemocratic systems, racist discriminations, segregation etc and that makes your demands 100% wrong. And then you are trying to excuse your wrong demands with lame excuses such as "it is the GCs who started and they should now pay the price", but as I have clearly shown, it is the Turks who started it, and if somebody should pay the price that should be them. But since I am not "nice" like you, I never asked from the TCs to "pay the price" of what happened in the past, and instead I support democracy and equality of all Cypriots without any racist punishments and discriminations.

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

When did you accept anything other than partition? Annan plan was partition even worst than what we have today.

If you want "something that both communities can live with" then that something can not be any form of partition, legalization of ethnic cleansing, some undemocratic system, and our human rights violations because that is something that we can not live with. So either you will be able to live with democracy, human rights and equality of all citizens without racist discriminations and forced segregation, otherwise we will never agree with you, just like we would never be able to agree with Hitler who had similar views. Therefore our only option is to wait for the balance of power to change. You allow to us no other option.

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

You have only yourself and your greed to blame. You can cut the lame excuses and accept to be equal Cypriot citizens in a united and democratic Cyprus. Unfortunately you insist on Ottoman style gains on our expense because Turkey and the AngloAmericans promise to you such unfair gains.

Until you realize that those promises that they give to you are not because you actually deserve such things (50% power, 30% of the land, 30% of civil servants etc), but because they want to make sure we will never find a real solution in Cyprus so they can continue to serve their own interests on our expense, it might be too late for your community.

[Afroasiatis]

This is why I always say that only with a change in the balance of power we can liberate our lands.

I can't imagine that balance of power could ever change that much, not in the foreseeable future at least, that it would mean that the whole Northern Cyprus comes under GC control. But even if this happens in a distant future, you'll still need some kind of military operation in order to drive out the inhabitants of these lands, plus you'll need to find enough GCs willing to go and settle in the North.

But most importantly, this is still thinking in terms of confrontation between GCs and TCs. This means, that TCs would only wait for the next change in balance of power, in order to take their revenge.

The only way for a permanent solution of the Cyprus Problem is a compromise between the two sides, which could be the basis for building a new common cypriot identity, going above our ethnic identities. Some kind of a common cause uniting us.

So you think the TCs would settle for a "special treatment for some period, to prevent discrimination and to improve their social position" instead of the vast gains on our expense promised to them by the Imperialists? Sorry my friend, but I really don't think so.

I think yes, it could be possible. A difficult thing of course, for the reasons we said before, but the only possibility to avoid confrontation between GCs and TCs.
I mean, even in the conditions of 50s and 60s, there were some TCs who were ready to fight for a united homecountry, against the wills of Denktas and his likes. And that despite the not helpful behavior of GCs. If the behavior of GCs was helpful, they could be much more.
I believe that, in principle, Cypriots are a peaceful and conservative people, generally ready to make compromisses if they feel they have something to gain from it, and want to avoid big changes in their life if possible.
So, if it was clear for TCs that they have something to gain from an anti-colonial struggle, a lot of them would probably join it. But of course, we couldn't expect them to join a struggle with the result of a new state, in which they would be treated as a minority. With all the dangers that come from being a minority in modern states of our region.

[Afroasiatis]

You talked about the Greeks and Afroasiatis about the Jews. I should remind you that the Greeks inhabited north Greece long before any Slavs or Turks settled the area. The same with Jews. They inhabited Israel long before the Arabs took their lands.

I thing this logic (the land belongs to the one who speaks a language similar to the one spoken there first, thousand years ago, even if it's not in the majority anymore) isn't generally accepted, thank God for that. This would mean that the borders of most countries in the world would need to be redrawn, and many people would need to be driven out of their homes.

It would mean e.g. that the populations of France still speaking celtic dialects should have more rights to France than the French-speakers.

And what if the Arvanites in Greece were to prove the Pelasgian connection? This would mean that they, or the Albanian immigrants, should have more rights to Greece than the Greek-speakers.

[Piratis]

This is why I always say that only with a change in the balance of power we can liberate our lands.

I can't imagine that balance of power could ever change that much, not in the foreseeable future at least, that it would mean that the whole Northern Cyprus comes under GC control. But even if this happens in a distant future, you'll still need some kind of military operation in order to drive out the inhabitants of these lands, plus you'll need to find enough GCs willing to go and settle in the North.

But most importantly, this is still thinking in terms of confrontation between GCs and TCs. This means, that TCs would only wait for the next change in balance of power, in order to take their revenge.

The only way for a permanent solution of the Cyprus Problem is a compromise between the two sides, which could be the basis for building a new common cypriot identity, going above our ethnic identities. Some kind of a common cause uniting us.

Not many things in the future are foreseeable, especially when we are talking about the mid to long term future.

One of the things that is foreseeable is that unless there is a change in the balance of power there will not be any kind of agreement with the TCs since they demand all compromises to be made by us while they gain on our expense, and they make no compromise whatsoever compared with the 1960 agreements, which were already skewed in their favor.

If you can magically make the TCs to make the required compromises, then please work your magic and we will all be grateful.

I would also prefer unity and all those nice things you are talking about, but since such thing is not possible then the second best is to keep fighting until we win. Maybe it will not be a "final victory", but thats much better than allowing the Turks to have this "final victory" by surrendering to them our lands.

So you think the TCs would settle for a "special treatment for some period, to prevent discrimination and to improve their social position" instead of the vast gains on our expense promised to them by the Imperialists? Sorry my friend, but I really don't think so.

I think yes, it could be possible. A difficult thing of course, for the reasons we said before, but the only possibility to avoid confrontation between GCs and TCs.
I mean, even in the conditions of 50s and 60s, there were some TCs who were ready to fight for a united homecountry, against the wills of Denktas and his likes. And that despite the not helpful behavior of GCs. If the behavior of GCs was helpful, they could be much more.
I believe that, in principle, Cypriots are a peaceful and conservative people, generally ready to make compromisses if they feel they have something to gain from it, and want to avoid big changes in their life if possible.
So, if it was clear for TCs that they have something to gain from an anti-colonial struggle, a lot of them would probably join it. But of course, we couldn't expect them to join a struggle with the result of a new state, in which they would be treated as a minority. With all the dangers that come from being a minority in modern states of our region.

There are always "some TCs" who will do the right thing. Unfortunately the majority of them will always do what they believe will be the most profitable to them. And unfortunately for as long as the foreign Imperialists promise to them huge gains on our expense, that is what the TCs are going to choose. If they have "something to gain" from anti-colonial struggle or "something to gain" from unity, is just not going to be enough if they have "a lot more to gain" from separation and division.