Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

What settlers Nikitas? How about those that were born here? Can you really believe that the EU or the UN or any international body or organisation that upholds human rights will ever agree to send these people to the places their fathers came from and soon their forefathers? Why do you pick on the settlers now, earlier you thought that the property issue was the most important.

[Kikapu]

What settlers Nikitas? How about those that were born here? Can you really believe that the EU or the UN or any international body or organisation that upholds human rights will ever agree to send these people to the places their fathers came from and soon their forefathers? Why do you pick on the settlers now, earlier you thought that the property issue was the most important.

But the RoC does not recognize these people as her citizens, Bananiot, even if we were to put aside that they are in Cyprus illegally. To the best of my knowledge, the UN, EU or any other International body CANNOT force the RoC to make these people her citizens. At the very best, they may force the RoC to retain all those born in Cyprus as "guests" and send all those who were not born in Cyprus back to Turkey as Illegal Aliens. If the RoC is forced to retain all settlers children born in Cyprus, then the RoC may retaliate by demanding all Illegal Aliens to be sent back to Turkey, regardless whether they are married to a TC or not, and that ONLY those born in Cyprus, who are descendants from settlers can stay, and even then, as "guests" only. I believe that would be far more harmful to any settler who is married to a TC and who does have children born in Cyprus than what Christofias (AP) has proposed, that 50,000 settlers, totalling children born to settlers in Cyprus and settlers married to TCs can stay as CITIZENS of Cyprus. The rest of the settlers just needs to return back to their country of origin, which is ONLY 60 miles away, which is shorter than what some people commute to work in the USA. If the RoC should need workers to come and work in Cyprus from Turkey, then they would just need to go through the proper channels as anyone else and become "guest workers"..

[humanist]

Bananiot everything is so related.... however, how many settlers do you keep? Personally I would say that 250,000 people can stay there is probably a need for it and instead of having thousands of workers from Sri Lanka perhaps we can extend the employment sector to settlers. However, i can see that there is issues with some people fearing take over. On the other hand Turkey or the TC leadership are not willing to give where it should and therefore, the GC side will reject a lot of things until the Turks give and perhaps where they need to give is around right of return. Christofias also needs to give in the area of right of return. For example why evict someone who has been living in a home for decades if the GC refugee isn't going to return. To this I suggest that the TC be given the home and the home only. be returned to the refugee.No unbuild land should be kept by TC but returned to rightful owner. Of course the TC's by dealing out GC land to TC's as part of their exchange rationale have created a nightmare. They need to deal with that.

[BirKibrisli]

The Cyprus problem was created by the historical and geopolitical factors dominant at the time...It is pointless to argue what happened first,who was most to blame,who suffered more and for longer etc...That will get us nowhere simply because even if we happen,by some miracle, to agree on everything, the solution will depend on todays conditions and geopolitical determinations...some people are trying to reduce the Cyprus problem to a matter of international law and sovereignty etc...This will never work...As Bananiot keeps telling us,international conflicts are not determined or settled according to who is right and who is wrong,or how much blame to assign to each party...

Similarly,the land issues and the settler issue cannot and will not be determined simply by which community owns how much,or what is the right number of settlers to allow as citizens after a solution...Both will depend on the nature of the solution...If ,as it seems more and more likely,that the realistic solution will come in form of a BBF,each founding state will need to have enough land and resources,including human resources,to have a reasonable chance of fulfilling its requirements under the federal constitution...This will require a lot of compromise from both sides...When if comes to the settler issue,I'd like to see a humanitarian approach,which will not cause any further pain and suffering for these unfortunate people,who have found themselves hostages in an internationally created national/geopolitical/ethnic conflict...

But I fear that most people here are simply about getting even,avenging what they consider to be past wrongs done to them by the other side..a fair and realistic solution is not what they want..They are going for the maximum gain, and the maximum pain they can inflict on the other side...
Hence the reason why we ,here,and the powers that be in the real world,cannot agree on anything...The solution when it comes,and it will come sooner or later,will not be our own making,but what suits the main players in this tragicomedy...Unless,again by some miracle,we decide that we will try to manage our own destiny,and as Cypriots demand that our interests come first...For that to happen we need to first foster trust,understanding,and respect for each other...And here I come back full circle to the need for empathy,and compassion,as mature,intelligent people who can finally put the interests of their homeland above all else...
From what I gather from reading this forum our chances of success is zero or very close to it...

[Piratis]

I think this overestimation of the role of the UN was one of the basic mistakes of the GC policies.

I disagree on the reason the UN were formed. In my opinion, the real reason was for the winners of WW2 to keep the world under their control, in some sort of a balance between them. The selection of the permanent members of the Security Council shows this.

Among the first things the UN did, was to provide a legal basis for big-scale ethnic cleansing to take place in Palestine, and to recognize a state created through this, disregarding any principle of self-determination of the local population. I also don't know of UN doing anything to prevent the ethnic cleansing of Germans e.g. in Czechoslovakia. So, I think the UN made it clear from the beginning that it can accept ethnic cleansing in principle.

Also, most of the permanent member of SC were exactly countries who used and use their military power to attack weaker countries and bring them under their control, without of course being prevented by UN.

So, I don't think that there was such a big difference between 1920s and 1950s, and the results have shown this. The new reality in Cyprus was formed through ethnic cleansing, the same way the two "mother-countries", Greece and Turkey, were formed on the basis of mutual ethnic cleansing.

I agree with you on this Afroasiatis. The correct thing to say would be "...the UN was supposedly formed based on certain principles..."

We all know that those principles do not mean much, otherwise they wouldn't have let Turkey to violate UN resolutions and occupy Cyprus for 36 years, and they wouldn't propose something like Annan plan which is a so called "solution" based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations.

This is why I always say that only with a change in the balance of power we can liberate our lands.

Now, a fight for an independence instead of Enosi wasn't a simple thing, you're right. The cypriot society was segregated even before colonialism, and to unite it for a common cause wouldn't be easy, for sure. But it was the only possibility to avoid confrontation. From the moment the GC elites picked Enosi, they also chose the confrontation with the TCs, with the results we all know.

For sure, for an anti-colonial independence movement to be successful, it would be needed to make sure that TCs wouldn't be treated as a minority in the new state. And for this to be avoided, nationalism shouldn't enter Cyprus in the first place, or better, some sort of an alternative Cypriot nationalism should be created to counter it. Very difficult goals in a post-Ottoman society with a long tradition of segregation, but still, the only possibility to avoid conflict. Of course this should also include an agreed special treatment of TCs for some period, to prevent discrimination and to improve their social position.

So you think the TCs would settle for a "special treatment for some period, to prevent discrimination and to improve their social position" instead of the vast gains on our expense promised to them by the Imperialists? Sorry my friend, but I really don't think so.

[Piratis]

Most of the nations of the Balkans were formed by ethnic cleansing. Greece is no exception. The victorious Greek army in 1913 eradicated whole Turkish and Bulgarian villages and small towns in its path to Salonika and beyond. The creation of homogeneous state nations was the goal at the time.

In 1922, had Cyprus still been under Turkish rule, would have come under the total control of Turkey, no doubt. Greece was not in a position to bargain for anything at the time. Greek Cypriots would have been considered as a minority of a greater Turkey, just like the Greeks of Smyrna.

Of course, we could not appreciate this and in 1955 we started an armed struggle against the British in order to unite Cyprus with Greece, despite the stern warnings of successive Greek governments since 1950. Basically, we thought, and we still foolishly think, that having justice on our side, legitimises us to ask for for maximum gains. This is not how the world is run even if we had justice 100% on our side. The world is a more complex place and interests along with political manoeuvring shape policies and determine outcomes.

What really crosses me is when people see only the the wrongs committed by others and close their eyes to their own wrong doings. Also, the sick notion that someone is our eternal enemy and that for as long as we live we should live to fight against him. This is especially true with neighbours and when we behave like this, applying methods of the past to settle accounts, we should not cry our hearts out when we lose out. At the end of a day, after a conflict, one always wins and the other loses. At least let us lose respectfully.

Please spare us from your every day rhetoric about human rights, democracy and values, for you have been tried and failed, miserably.

And when have we been tried and failed? Cyprus passed from being a colony to being some undemocratic banana republic with racist discriminations and segregation. This thing was forced on us and was not our own creation.

If we were allowed to try, then we would create a democratic country like all the rest, with equality among citizens and no kind of racist discrimination or segregation. Unfortunately in our history we were never allowed to have this.

Actually, de facto, this is what we have in the 2/3rd of Cyprus which remain free from 1974, and in just a few decades we managed to transform Cyprus from a poor Colony to a modern democratic country which is an EU member and is approaching western European standards.

So when the Cypriots were allowed to rule themselves their country they were extremely successful, especially when you consider the circumstances and the short time we had. On the contrary all the failures in Cyprus were a result of unworkable and racist arrangements imposed on us by foreigners.

Basically, we thought, and we still foolishly think, that having justice on our side, legitimises us to ask for for maximum gains. This is not how the world is run even if we had justice 100% on our side.

When justice is 100% on our side of course it legitimatizes us to ask for our rights!

Is having justice on our side going to liberate our island and solve our problems? Obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have any problem today.

Therefore you have to agree with me that the only way to liberate our island is when the balance of power changes in our favor.

You talked about the Greeks and Afroasiatis about the Jews. I should remind you that the Greeks inhabited north Greece long before any Slavs or Turks settled the area. The same with Jews. They inhabited Israel long before the Arabs took their lands.

This is yet more evidence that shows that once the balance of power changes you can liberate your lands even if it takes 1000s of years for a favorable balance in power to happen. What is needed is to educate our children, and they will educate their children etc, for as long as is needed.

As long as we are prepared, the time to liberate Cyprus will come, it is only a question of when, not if.

[Piratis]

What settlers Nikitas? How about those that were born here? Can you really believe that the EU or the UN or any international body or organisation that upholds human rights will ever agree to send these people to the places their fathers came from and soon their forefathers? Why do you pick on the settlers now, earlier you thought that the property issue was the most important.

Oh, now the UN cares about human rights again? You people have to decide. Does the UN care or it doesn't?

If the UN could turn a blind eye in the uprooting of Greek Cypriots from the lands that their ancestors lived for 1000s of years, and now they are proposing to us "solutions" that legitimize this ethnic cleansing, then be sure that under a different balance of power (which is required anyways to free Cyprus), the UN will more than gladly accept the humane relocation of those people back to their ancestral lands with some compensation given to them by the Turkish state.

[Piratis]

The Cyprus problem was created by the historical and geopolitical factors dominant at the time...It is pointless to argue what happened first,who was most to blame,who suffered more and for longer etc...That will get us nowhere simply because even if we happen,by some miracle, to agree on everything, the solution will depend on todays conditions and geopolitical determinations...some people are trying to reduce the Cyprus problem to a matter of international law and sovereignty etc...This will never work...As Bananiot keeps telling us,international conflicts are not determined or settled according to who is right and who is wrong,or how much blame to assign to each party...

Similarly,the land issues and the settler issue cannot and will not be determined simply by which community owns how much,or what is the right number of settlers to allow as citizens after a solution...Both will depend on the nature of the solution...If ,as it seems more and more likely,that the realistic solution will come in form of a BBF,each founding state will need to have enough land and resources,including human resources,to have a reasonable chance of fulfilling its requirements under the federal constitution...This will require a lot of compromise from both sides...When if comes to the settler issue,I'd like to see a humanitarian approach,which will not cause any further pain and suffering for these unfortunate people,who have found themselves hostages in an internationally created national/geopolitical/ethnic conflict...

But I fear that most people here are simply about getting even,avenging what they consider to be past wrongs done to them by the other side..a fair and realistic solution is not what they want..They are going for the maximum gain, and the maximum pain they can inflict on the other side...
Hence the reason why we ,here,and the powers that be in the real world,cannot agree on anything...The solution when it comes,and it will come sooner or later,will not be our own making,but what suits the main players in this tragicomedy...Unless,again by some miracle,we decide that we will try to manage our own destiny,and as Cypriots demand that our interests come first...For that to happen we need to first foster trust,understanding,and respect for each other...And here I come back full circle to the need for empathy,and compassion,as mature,intelligent people who can finally put the interests of their homeland above all else...
From what I gather from reading this forum our chances of success is zero or very close to it...

Bir, you are the first one to start the blame game trying (and failing) to show that what happened in the past is our fault and therefore Greek Cypriots should now "pay the price". Isn't that "avenging what you consider to be past wrongs"?

Unfortunately a "fair solution" and a "realistic solution" (under the current balance of power) are two very different things.

You have to decide if you want a fair solution, or if you want to take advantage of the current balance of power and try to get a "solution" which will favor you on our expense.

If you choose a "fair solution" then we can agree tomorrow. If you choose a "realistic solution", then we will not agree now, because we would rather wait (for as long as it takes) for the realities to change in a way that will favor us, and get a solution then by liberating Cyprus and forcing our terms, in the same way you are forcing partition and your terms on us now.

[BirKibrisli]

The Cyprus problem was created by the historical and geopolitical factors dominant at the time...It is pointless to argue what happened first,who was most to blame,who suffered more and for longer etc...That will get us nowhere simply because even if we happen,by some miracle, to agree on everything, the solution will depend on todays conditions and geopolitical determinations...some people are trying to reduce the Cyprus problem to a matter of international law and sovereignty etc...This will never work...As Bananiot keeps telling us,international conflicts are not determined or settled according to who is right and who is wrong,or how much blame to assign to each party...

Similarly,the land issues and the settler issue cannot and will not be determined simply by which community owns how much,or what is the right number of settlers to allow as citizens after a solution...Both will depend on the nature of the solution...If ,as it seems more and more likely,that the realistic solution will come in form of a BBF,each founding state will need to have enough land and resources,including human resources,to have a reasonable chance of fulfilling its requirements under the federal constitution...This will require a lot of compromise from both sides...When if comes to the settler issue,I'd like to see a humanitarian approach,which will not cause any further pain and suffering for these unfortunate people,who have found themselves hostages in an internationally created national/geopolitical/ethnic conflict...

But I fear that most people here are simply about getting even,avenging what they consider to be past wrongs done to them by the other side..a fair and realistic solution is not what they want..They are going for the maximum gain, and the maximum pain they can inflict on the other side...
Hence the reason why we ,here,and the powers that be in the real world,cannot agree on anything...The solution when it comes,and it will come sooner or later,will not be our own making,but what suits the main players in this tragicomedy...Unless,again by some miracle,we decide that we will try to manage our own destiny,and as Cypriots demand that our interests come first...For that to happen we need to first foster trust,understanding,and respect for each other...And here I come back full circle to the need for empathy,and compassion,as mature,intelligent people who can finally put the interests of their homeland above all else...
From what I gather from reading this forum our chances of success is zero or very close to it...

Bir, you are the first one to start the blame game trying (and failing) to show that what happened in the past is our fault and therefore Greek Cypriots should now "pay the price". Isn't that "avenging what you consider to be past wrongs"?

Unfortunately a "fair solution" and a "realistic solution" (under the current balance of power) are two very different things.

You have to decide if you want a fair solution, or if you want to take advantage of the current balance of power and try to get a "solution" which will favor you on our expense.

If you choose a "fair solution" then we can agree tomorrow. If you choose a "realistic solution", then we will not agree now, because we would rather wait (for as long as it takes) for the realities to change in a way that will favor us, and get a solution then by liberating Cyprus and forcing our terms, in the same way you are forcing partition and your terms on us now.

NO,Piratis...I simply remind you the effect of your demand for Enosis on the TC community at the time,as you seem to want to sweep it under the carpet...It is a fact that Enosis came before Taksim,and EOKA came before TMT...These are historical facts you cannot deny...

I dont think we can ever find a "fair" solution,Piratis...Because we will never agree on what is fair,as we can never agree on why we are in this mess...You always say you are 100 percent right(or justice is 100 percent on your side,whatever the wording you use),this simply says you the GCs will decide what is fair and what is not...And the TCs will never accept that,because they think they are 100 percent right..Now I don't think we are 100 % right. If you press me on a figure I'd say we are 60% right and 40 % wrong...But that is a long way from your figure (You are 100 pecent right and we are 100 percent wrong)...You see my point?

Hence the solution,if there is one,will have to be a "realistic" solution...Something both communities can live with...If you say OHI,we will wait till the conditions are right to get 100 percent of what we want,our ultimate,ideal solution,you might ahve to wait a long time...And there is a risk that that time might never come...Or it (the balance of power)might go further and further away from you...Partition was never my prefered choice...It still isn't...But unless you agree to a 'realistic' solution soon,Partition might be what becomes fait accompli...

I've said time and time again..The TC community cannot maintain its unique Cypriot identity if partition comes to pass...We will be assimilated into the mainstream Turkish society...But that is the preferred option for most TCs in and out of Cyprus,if the alternative is to give you 100 % of what you want...There is nothing I can do to change that,except trying to talk some sense into you,as I have been doing for some time now...Without much success,I hate to say...So if Partition happens,I for one ,will blame you,and those who think like you...This GC mentality goes back a long way...We are 100% right,hence we must have our way 100%...
That is the same mentality which brought us where we are today..You people do not seem to learn any lessons from history..Not even when your own kind (Bananiot and those who think like him) tell you themselves...

[Nikitas]

Bananiot said:

"What settlers Nikitas? How about those that were born here? Can you really believe that the EU or the UN or any international body or organisation that upholds human rights will ever agree to send these people to the places their fathers came from and soon their forefathers? Why do you pick on the settlers now, earlier you thought that the property issue was the most important. "

Not the property issue, the TERRITORY issue is the most important in my view. It still is. The apportionment of territory between each constituent region and the shape of that territory is paramount. The GC sector cannot be fragmented, leaving the TC region as the only contiguous part of Cyprus. Anyone who know geopolitics can see the reasons.

Settlers who marry and thereby attain the justification to become citizens of the future BBF, fine, they stay no matter where they are from. The rest do not belong here. The rejection of settlers is not a matter of human rights becaue their importation and settlement is already a violation of others' human rights.

The UN and others might balk, but they will then have to explain the justification they use in favor of the settlers and by definition AGAINST the indigenous displaced people. It is a tricky problem and the easiest and most realistic solution is a financial inducement and return.

Realistically spekaing Bananiot, you and I know that BOTH Cypriot communities will feel great resentment at any civil service jobs being given to settlers of any origin. Allowing a great number of settlers to remain simply guarantees future problems.